[Newbie] Mini-ITX Mobo in 2023

Davvo

MVP
Joined
Jul 12, 2022
Messages
3,142
So I can't know for sure until I'm actively using the NAS? I mean, all the the mini-ITX mobos that had more max. ram than that had some other specs I didn't like (m.2(x2) or no PCIe at all).
In this case you can apply standard editing rig common sense to your nas (since it's a single-user machine): as such you should have a rough understanding about the size of your working set.
When you reach max ARC but want more you can use L2ARC.
 

Etorix

Wizard
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
2,110
You're both seemingly saying the opposite thing to me. I'll think about it then - I was also wondering if I could attache passive heatsinks on them.
No. Due to the small case, I got concerned (likely overconcerned) about cooling multiple M.2 drives, especially those that could end up next to the casing. Space permitting, heatsinks may be possible and it's something to keep an eye on rather than a show stopper.
Also, contrary to HDDs, SSDs can operate safely at warm temperatures.

Define tons of ARC... as I was already planning on going for 128gb ram.
As said by @Davvo, it's all relative, but your planned 128 GB are a fair candidate for the distinction.
 

neetbuck

Explorer
Joined
May 16, 2023
Messages
56
In this case you can apply standard editing rig common sense to your nas (since it's a single-user machine): as such you should have a rough understanding about the size of your working set.
Really calling me out here, ahaha jk, but on a serious note video editing is something I'm only just getting into tbh, It's not really work related for me just yet... so I don't really know what is or isn't common sense.

As said by @Davvo, it's all relative, but your planned 128 GB are a fair candidate for the distinction.
Ok good to know... I will report back my findings once I get it all sorted out.

No. Due to the small case, I got concerned (likely overconcerned) about cooling multiple M.2 drives, especially those that could end up next to the casing. Space permitting, heatsinks may be possible and it's something to keep an eye on rather than a show stopper.
Ah ok, fair enough then, I was just a bit confused. I understand then.

I think my final move is gonna be to shell out a bit on the mobo so I can have on-board 10GbE, and have a free PCIe slot (in case I end up wanting to add that nvme pool in the future) and an M.2 slot (in case I need L2ARC)... which means I'm discarding the X10SDV-F (no 10GbE on-board)

I'm erring more towards the X10SDV-4C-TLN4F than the E3C256D4I-2T or the X570D4I-2T because I don't want to have to pay extra for the OCUlink breakout cable and I honestly don't have a great idea on what isn't overkill or too modern of a cpu for NAS and I'm running out of time on how long I can postpone these purchases to do more research.

I'll try to take a look regardless. Here are the possibilities with each board in case ya'll have any thoughts:

> E3C256D4I-2T // Intel Xeon E-2300 or 10th Gen Intel Pentium

> X570D4I-2T // AMD Ryzen 5000 and 3000 or AMD Ryzen PRO 5000, 4000 and 3000 (I left out the G-series, because apparently you can't use ECC memory with them?)
 

Etorix

Wizard
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
2,110
Now that you've narrowed the technical requirements to "on-board 10G", look what's available, new or refurbished/second-hand if you dare, and evaluate the total budget for a board with CPU (say 2-6 cores, max. 65 W TDP), ECC RAM (in the appropriate RDIMM, ECC UDIMM or ECC SO-DIMM size) and cooling solution (Noctua A6x25 or equivalent 60 mm fan for a "passive" X10SDV, low profile cooler for LGA1200/AM4).
 

neetbuck

Explorer
Joined
May 16, 2023
Messages
56
Now that you've narrowed the technical requirements to "on-board 10G", look what's available, new or refurbished/second-hand if you dare, and evaluate the total budget for a board with CPU (say 2-6 cores, max. 65 W TDP), ECC RAM (in the appropriate RDIMM, ECC UDIMM or ECC SO-DIMM size) and cooling solution (Noctua A6x25 or equivalent 60 mm fan for a "passive" X10SDV, low profile cooler for LGA1200/AM4).
Yeah this is what I'm trying to do now, although one of the boards only support AMD CPUs... I'm struggling to figure out which AMD Ryzen CPUs I can actually use and have ECC memory support. Are they to be avoided preferably?

As for technical requirements - I'm also discriminating against any mobos that don't support at least 128GB of RAM as you have all said TrueNAS loves ram.
 

Davvo

MVP
Joined
Jul 12, 2022
Messages
3,142
I'm struggling to figure out which AMD Ryzen CPUs I can actually use and have ECC memory support.
Only PRO versions have ECC memory support (with a few caveats regarding the G series iirc).

Are they to be avoided preferably?
Not per se, they just have a smaller market in the server environment (at some point I believe there was a C state issue with AMD CPUs, but iirc it has been fixed) and as such in this forum.

As for technical requirements - I'm also discriminating against any mobos that don't support at least 128GB of RAM as you have all said TrueNAS loves ram.
Keep in mind you can use L2ARC as well if you have 64GB of ARC, depending on your use case it might be worth.
 

neetbuck

Explorer
Joined
May 16, 2023
Messages
56
Only PRO versions have ECC memory support (with a few caveats regarding the G series iirc).
I've been looking around but I'm not finding anything that looks to be a confirmation of this. It seems like sometimes people confuse ECC memory working with the ECC actually being active and some people say hat it only works with the PRO series, but then I can't find evidence of this being the case. Is there anywhere I could find such evidence so I could feel more comfortable considering an AMD CPU?

Keep in mind you can use L2ARC as well if you have 64GB of ARC, depending on your use case it might be worth.
I'm aware, but I think I prefer having as much ARC as possible, and then using L2ARC if necessary.
 

Etorix

Wizard
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
2,110
Is there anywhere I could find such evidence so I could feel more comfortable considering an AMD CPU?
Not to anyone's knowledge.
No Ryzen platform is officially validated for ECC the way Xeon and EPYC platforms are. The combination of an AsRockRack server board and Ryzen Pro CPU is possibly the best bet, but it's still a bet.
 

Davvo

MVP
Joined
Jul 12, 2022
Messages
3,142
I'm aware, but I think I prefer having as much ARC as possible, and then using L2ARC if necessary.
Sure, but if you can save 200 in motherboard and another 100 in modules (casually thrown numbers), you might find it worth.
 

neetbuck

Explorer
Joined
May 16, 2023
Messages
56
No Ryzen platform is officially validated for ECC the way Xeon and EPYC platforms are. The combination of an AsRockRack server board and Ryzen Pro CPU is possibly the best bet, but it's still a bet.
I don't really feel like betting on this to be honest - I think I'm going to rule out the X570D4I-2T.

Sure, but if you can save 200 in motherboard and another 100 in modules (casually thrown numbers), you might find it worth.
I'll consider it, but at this point I think I'd rather just pick one of the two motherboards I haven't discriminated against. Out of curiosity, are there any cons when using L2ARC vs just ARC?
 

Davvo

MVP
Joined
Jul 12, 2022
Messages
3,142
I'll consider it, but at this point I think I'd rather just pick one of the two motherboards I haven't discriminated against. Out of curiosity, are there any cons when using L2ARC vs just ARC?
For starters it's slower and suffers when there is high latency (hence the need for m.2).
Also, you have a certain proportion of ARC to L2ARC to respect since it's indexed in the ARC: should be around 1:6 iirc.
You need a high endurance NVMe drive, overprovisioning it will help.
 

neetbuck

Explorer
Joined
May 16, 2023
Messages
56
For starters it's slower and suffers when there is high latency (hence the need for m.2).
Also, you have a certain proportion of ARC to L2ARC to respect since it's indexed in the ARC: should be around 1:6 iirc.
You need a high endurance NVMe drive, overprovisioning it will help.
Yeah I think that I'll stick to my guns then and continue discarding all the motherboards that don't support a minimum of 128GB RAM (max.). It sounds like the safer bet even if it will drive the cost up for me.

I've been doing some more looking around and taking notes, made a new excel sheet to do a final shootout between motherboards. I'm a bit confused though, I'm looking at basically two options now: X10SDV-6C-TLN4F or X10SDV-4C-TLN4F VS. E3C256D4I-2T.

My confusion is due to the pricing for both options. It seems like if I pair the E3C256D4I-2T with a Xeon-E 2300 series CPU and match the price of either of the X10SDVs, the former is a way better deal, since for example a Xeon D-1528 is outperformed by a Xeon E-2334 and a Xeon E-2334 is outperformed by a Xeon E-2314.... at least if CPU comparison sites are to be believed.

So basically my question would be, is my analysis correct or am I missing something when comparing these similarly priced motherboard+CPU combinations?

I'm going to add table to make the comparison clearer:

Motherboard​
CPU​
Specs​
TOTAL PRICE​
X10SDV-6C-TLN4F​
Xeon D-1528​
6C 12T
1.90 GHz​
1,058.96€​
X10SDV-4C-TLN4F​
Xeon D-1518​
4C 8T
2.20 GHz​
808.03€​
E3C256D4I-2T​
Xeon E-2334​
4C 8T
3.40 GHz​
1,053.79€​
E3C256D4I-2T​
Xeon E-2314​
4C 4T
2.80 GHz​
907.28€​
 

Patrick M. Hausen

Hall of Famer
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
7,737
If I am not mistaken the Xeon D variants will use considerably less power.
 

neetbuck

Explorer
Joined
May 16, 2023
Messages
56
If I am not mistaken the Xeon D variants will use considerably less power.
it seems like you're not mistaken, the Xeon D-1500 that come built into both of the X10SDV motherboards run at 35W vs 65 for all of the Xeon E-2300 series models I am considering (Xeon E-2336, Xeon E-2334, Xeon E-2324G, Xeon E-2314).

Idk if this constitutes a huge difference, but it still seems like quite the trade off in terms of performance (again, based off of what CPU comparison sites have to say about it).

Is power consumption the only reason for why a Motherboard with an integrated D-1500 costs the same as one with an additional E-2300 that outperforms it?
 

Etorix

Wizard
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
2,110
So basically my question would be, is my analysis correct or am I missing something when comparing these similarly priced motherboard+CPU combinations?
Beside maximal power draw (idle is probably not so different), you're missing RAM price. Xeon D-1500 can use DDR4 RDIMM, Xeon E-2300 requires UDIMM. 128 GB of 2133/2400 MHz RDIMM (or even faster) should be a lot cheaper than 128 GB of 3200 MHz UDIMM (especially if you go second-hand…).
Add this to your calculations.
 

neetbuck

Explorer
Joined
May 16, 2023
Messages
56
Beside maximal power draw (idle is probably not so different), you're missing RAM price. Xeon D-1500 can use DDR4 RDIMM, Xeon E-2300 requires UDIMM. 128 GB of 2133/2400 MHz RDIMM (or even faster) should be a lot cheaper than 128 GB of 3200 MHz UDIMM (especially if you go second-hand…).
Add this to your calculations.
Oh, that is quite a difference. I hadn't noticed that the Xeon E-2300 doesn't take RDIMM - I didn't see this info anywhere - but I take it that It only supports RDIMM if it explicitly says so.

I'm not sure about the price, the one's I found available in my country (not second hand) were similarly priced, It's way easier to find RDIMM compared to UDIMM it seems though... I found these two options that I'm going to post in case I got something wrong:

☛ For the Xeon E-2300: https://www.amazon.es/Kingston-Premier-3200MHz-Memoria-servidor/dp/B09N9TMCTR
☛ For Xeon D-1500: https://ibertronica.es/en/kingston-32gb-ddr4-2666mhz-12v-ecc

Was this and the power draw the only big difference (besides the E-2300s seemingly higher performance) between these two options then?
 
Last edited:

neetbuck

Explorer
Joined
May 16, 2023
Messages
56
I'm waiting to see if anyone can confirm if the RAM options I linked would work or if I messed up somehow... as that would elucidate if indeed prices between the two types of memory are so different or if they are pretty much the same.

I did look in the local second hand market and didn't find any Unbuffered SO-DIMM like the kind the Xeon E-2300 option would require, meanwhile I found plenty of cheap RDIMM... that said I don't plan on buying second hand.

Also is the performance of the Xeon E-2300 series vs the Xeon D-1500 series, as staggeringly in favour of the E-2300 series as CPU comparison sites make it seem?

So far I'm feeling like the E-2300 series is the better deal overall - but It's strange to me how it appears like the path less trodden.
 

Etorix

Wizard
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
2,110
ECC SODIMM is double pain: An uncommon option on an uncommon form factor for desktops/servers.
The selection seems correct. Going second hand, the older hardware and its common RDIMMs would easily win the price competition. If you buy new and prices come about the same, it makes sense to go with the newer Xeon E-2300.
I guess this is the path less trodden because most prefer cheap old refurbished hardware for their home labs.
 

neetbuck

Explorer
Joined
May 16, 2023
Messages
56
If you buy new and prices come about the same, it makes sense to go with the newer Xeon E-2300.
I actually did some more thinking and asking around, and I ended up discarding the E-2300 model - because I was told it might get really toasty in such a small case - same goes for my now 100% scrapped idea of having an NVMe pool on this build.

(Idk if it might be a bit late to revive this thread now... but ‍*shrug*)

I put the X10SDV-F (Xeon D-1541) back on the menu - up against the X10SDV-4C-TLN4F (Xeon D-1518).

The main difference is that the former doesn't have 10GbE on board. Since I don't plan to use the PCIe slot for an NVMe pool anymore, I don't have any pressing uses for it anymore... therefore I could potentially add an SPF+ NIC to it.

I read the relevant SPF+ vs 10GBase T post that was linked at the start of the thread, and while I got that SPF+ was better in general, I want to know if anybody has a contrary opinion, or is favorable towards 10GBase T.

Maybe getting the X10SDV-4C-TLN4F is a win-win since I could also install an SPF+ NIC on it.
 

neetbuck

Explorer
Joined
May 16, 2023
Messages
56
I'm still deliberating between three options and considering some of their minor differences to make a choice, taking the opportunity to bump this thread up and also post those differences:

- X10SDV-4C-TLN4F // D-1518 / 35W TDP / 10GbE: Yes / 4C 8T/ 2.2 GHz / 808,03€
- X10SDV-6C-TLN4F // D-1528 / 35W TDP / 10GbE: Yes / 6C 12T/ 1.9 GHz / 1.058,96€
- X10SDV-F // D-1541 / 45W TDP / 10GbE: No / 8C 16T / 2.1 GHz / 499,00€

I'm choosing one of these because the processors they allow (and come with soldered and preinstalled with) seem to be a good balance of performance, power consumption and heat generation, specially considering the limitations in space and cooling set by the Jonsbo N2 case.

The second hand X10SDV-F wins when it comes to processor performance and price, but loses when it comes to power consumption (marginally perhaps) and the lack of 10GbE (although that's not a strong point at the moment for me anymore since I'm planning on possibly adding an SFP+ card to whichever mobo I buy).

The X10SDV-4C-TLN4F seems like the moderate choice if I'm buying new and want to limit power consumption, with a good CPU only slightly worse than both other options... but maybe at that point the X10SDV-6C-TLN4F is worth it for the extra CPU performance?... Although It seems like the base frequency of the processor is low, I'm not very savvy when it comes to hardware, but I think that's not a good thing(?)

Any thoughts or comments on what I said, to help me decide, would be greatly appreciated.
 
Top