[Newbie] Mini-ITX Mobo in 2023

[Davvo]

I mean, I don't mind the money, I'm spending way less than I was thinking I would in the end... and I want to have the option to use 10GbE. Do you have any suggestions? I"m worried about getting a NIC that fits in my case, vertically that is, I think horizontally most should be fine.

As written in the resource I previously linked, Chelsio and Intel are the best shots. But again, those things can get hot.

which makes at total of 329W... is this correct?

I trust your math (you can find your drives power requirements in their datasheet), but make sure to check the amps required for the spinup.


CORSAIR 450W 80+ PLATINUM
Seasonic also has high quality PSUs

 

[neetbuck]

I trust your math

I don't lol that's why I was asking, I tried finding the precise power consumptions for some of the parts but didn't find anything.

CORSAIR 450W 80+ PLATINUM

This linked PSU seems to say it only has 4 SATA connectors, I'm not vary savvy with hardware, but wouldn't that be a problem given that I plan on using 5 HDDs and 1 SATA SSD in my build?

 

[Davvo]

I don't lol that's why I was asking, I tried finding the precise power consumptions for some of the parts but didn't find anything.

Can you please make a recap of the parts you ended up choosing?

This linked PSU seems to say it only has 4 SATA connectors, I'm not vary savvy with hardware, but wouldn't that be a problem given that I plan on using 5 HDDs and 1 SATA SSD in my build?

You can either buy one more SATA cable (the exact one already in the package) from the manufacturer or buy a Molex to SATA adapter.

 

[Constantin]

My Flex-ATX board with 10 HDDs, multiple SSDs, SATADOMS, etc. only consumes 125W peak on start, ~106W on idle. Yet my Seasonic Prime 750W Titanium PSU still died after 6 years of faithful service. So I would not size close to peak (which is pretty much impossible with higher-quality ATX-form factor PSUs for smaller NAS' anyway) and focus instead on getting a high-quality PSU from a reputable OEM like Seasonic.

 

[Davvo]

Seasonic has this, which is 125 mm (L) x 125 mm (W) x 63.5 mm (H) and 80+ Gold; 10 years of warranty.
imho, higher efficency at low-medium loads is key.

 

[neetbuck]

Can you please make a recap of the parts you ended up choosing?

Part​	Model​	Amount​	Power​	Total Power​
Motherboard	X10SDV-F	1	25W (est.)	25 (est.)
CPU	Xeon D-1541	1	45W	45W
RAM	Samsung M393A4K40BB0-CPB	4	6W (est.)	24W (est.)
CPU Fan	Noctua NF-A6x25 PWM	1	30W (est. internet says 2.16W though?)	30W (est.)
HDDs Fan	Noctua NF-A12x15 PWM	1	30W (est. internet says 1.56W tough?)	30W (est.)
SSD	Samsung 860 EVO 250GB (still considering)	1	35W (est. internet says 4W though?)	35W (est.)
HDDs	Ironwolf Pro 4TB or 8TB (still considering)	5	35W (est.)	175W (est.)
NIC	SPF+ dual port (unsure)	1	10W (est.)	10W (est.)
				374W

Anything with (est.) is based on the linked resource, anything that is (still considering) i'm still thinking about it and might change my mind on the model, and anything with (unsure) just means i don't know which model to buy yet at all.

As you can see some max power draw info is messy and what I found online didn't match what the resource said at all in some cases.

You can either buy one more SATA cable

Oh I thought the implication I could only hook up 4 SATA cables to the PSU, how many can I plug in then and how do I find this out? (sorry - new to even thinking about hardware - I have no idea how power supplies work).

Yet my Seasonic Prime 750W Titanium PSU still died after 6 years of faithful service

I'm a bit confused, are you recommending Seasonic or detracting from them? Is 6 years a good amount of time?

Seasonic has this

Looks good, I guess another question I have, is there any reason why sticking closer to my max. calculated wattage is a good idea vs getting something that is 100% overkill? (besides the price)

 

[Constantin]

I'm a bit confused, are you recommending Seasonic or detracting from them? Is 6 years a good amount of time?

I’m very happy with my Seasonic experience, almost as good as SuperMicro (with iXsystems in the lead). Hardware failures are a fact of life. Seasonic made the repair quick and easy, including an advance-replacement option.

Apologies for the confusion - all I was trying to illustrate is that even if a PSU is 5x more powerful than the max load, it can still degrade with time to failure.

You will have trouble finding a titanium ATX PSU for less than 650W. For my use case (about 125W plug load peak and 106W idle), a platinum 650W Corsair vs. the Seasonic prime 750W Ti resulted in about 10W more being drawn by the platinum PSU at the plug during idle. So that’s why I am an advocate for Ti PSUs for folk who care about energy efficiency and/or live in areas with high energy prices.

For me, that 10W delta results in about $23 a year difference re electricity cost alone. Add in AC come summer and subtract NG come winter and the cost delta is even higher.

 

[Davvo]

Part​	Model​	Amount​	Power​	Total Power​
Motherboard	X10SDV-F	1	25W (est.)	25 (est.)
CPU	Xeon D-1541	1	45W	45W
RAM	Samsung M393A4K40BB0-CPB	4	6W (est.)	24W (est.)
CPU Fan	Noctua NF-A6x25 PWM	1	1.1W (max and typical power are inverted in the specs page)	1.1W
HDDs Fan	Noctua NF-A12x15 PWM	1	1.6W	1.6W
SSD	Samsung 860 EVO 250GB (still considering)	1	3W	3W
HDDs	Ironwolf Pro 4TB or 8TB (still considering)	5	10W using 8TB drives (ST8000NE001)	50W
NIC	SPF+ dual port (unsure)	1	10W (est.)	10W (est.)
			AVERAGE POWER WILL BE LOWER	160W

The 60mm fan has a 0.1A max current draw and the 120mm has 0.13A while the drives have a typical startup current value of 2A each: this means you need a PSU that's able to handle at least 12A (only for those parts) in the 12V rail.

Now, since we read the PSU sizing guide, we know that each drive may require up to 35W of power during spinup: that's an additional 125W we have to consider: 160W + 125W = 285W.

Since we want to do things properly we take our number and multiply that for 1.25 in order to consider derating, which gives us a 322.5W: since we need SFX, we take 450W and make sure that your average power won't be under the 20% line of that power, which is 450W * 0.20 = 90W.

160W on a 450W PSU is roughly 35% of the total power draw.
Going with a 350W would be better from an efficency point but I doubt you will be able to find a good SFX one, plus you won't have much room for growth; anyway, it would bring the average power draw to a 46% which is better.

Considering the 450W, with ther corsair 80+ palatinum we saw before you would reach an efficency between 91% and 93%; with the seasonic 80+ gold you would be between 87% and 93%.
I eyeballed such values from their graphs, they aren't accurate.

Oh I thought the implication I could only hook up 4 SATA cables to the PSU, how many can I plug in then and how do I find this out? (sorry - new to even thinking about hardware - I have no idea how power supplies work).

You have to do the math looking at the rails of the PSU, generally your limits are at daisy chaining.

EDIT: given your loads, don't buy anything greater than a 650W: 750W*0.2 = 150W which is extremely close, if not above, your average power draw.
Generally you want to stay between the 40%-80% in order to get the maximum efficency from your PSU.

 

[neetbuck]

all I was trying to illustrate is that even if a PSU is 5x more powerful than the max load, it can still degrade with time to failure.

ah gotcha

that’s why I am an advocate for Ti PSUs

I don't think there any small form factor Ti PSUs as far as I can see(?)

Now, since we read the PSU sizing guide, we know that each drive may require up to 35W of power during spinup

I notice that you found the power draw information from some of the parts that I had missed (apparently I was way off with the fans... i have no idea how I got those numbers), I'm curious though why for the drives we're following the PSU sizing guide to a tee, but for the fans we're going with what the manufacturer says is the max power draw... which is way way lower than what the PSU sizing guide suggests to use for fans (15-30W) - I feel like I must be missing something here to understand.

I eyeballed such values from their graphs, they aren't accurate

Not accurate as in the difference in efficiency isn't that high?

You have to do the math looking at the rails of the PSU

Ah I see.

I'm looking at the following PSUs rn, it kinda helps cull my options down that there are so few seemingly reputable SFX models: sf600 or 750 Platinum from Corsair, or the focus spx 650 or 750 from Seasonic.

 

[Davvo]

I notice that you found the power draw information from some of the parts that I had missed (apparently I was way off with the fans... i have no idea how I got those numbers), I'm curious though why for the drives we're following the PSU sizing guide to a tee, but for the fans we're going with what the manufacturer says is the max power draw... which is way way lower than what the PSU sizing guide suggests to use for fans (15-30W) - I feel like I must be missing something here to understand.

Because I have no idea where that 15-30W per fan value comes from.
On the HDD specs, it says that the spinup corrent is 2A on the 12V rail Startup Current, Typical (12V, A), which means 2A * 12V = 24W required during spinup: I rounded it up to 25W.
On the fans specs, it says that the Max. input current 0,13 A and the operating voltage is 12 V: doing math confirms us the Input power (max.) of 1,56 W the specs report.

Not accurate as in the difference in efficiency isn't that high?

Not accurate as in I guessed the numbers based on the graph reference points. Look at the graphs and you will understand.

I'm looking at the following PSUs rn, it kinda helps cull my options down that there are so few seemingly reputable SFX models: sf600 or 750 Platinum from Corsair, or the focus spx 650 or 750 from Seasonic.

As I wrote, don't buy over 650W.

 

[jgreco]

Because I have no idea where that 15-30W per fan value comes from.

Fans can consume large amounts of power. For fans generating lots of pressure differential, this can be quite substantial and I think I have a picture of a fan on the bench here eating a bunch of watts buried in the thread. However, even if not, you can have stuff like stall current that cause fans to consume lots of watts, causing a 12V brownout, then they heat up, and then when the fan dies it turns into a fixed high watt heat source.

The whole "proper power supply sizing" thing came about because of a fella who was passing himself off as an expert in the area, and kept recommending seriously undersized solutions. I believe it is entirely possible to build things that are likely to run safely. If you're really interested where these numbers come from, I have done the homework and you will be able to find it if you look hard enough.

I need some data points

So I am looking to make a put together a NAS box. I'll be using E3 1230V3, 32 GB RAM, and 6 3TB WD REDs. My questions are: Power: Can anybody chime in with 6 WD REDs and similar processor and tell me how much power their rig uses on idle? I am sure the fans take some decent amount as well, i.e...

www.truenas.com

It's a great thread. I noted in there that for two fans plus CPU fan, MEASURED inrush was actually 2.72A (~33W) and stall was actually 2.39A (~29W) so that is probably the ultimate answer to @Davvo regarding where "15-30W per fan" comes from. You have to assume all your fans will start simultaneously, and if doing so is causing a brownout on the 12V, that's not good for the drives. Whether you want to plan for a situation where all your fans stall simultaneously is really up to you; that's probably unnecessary unless you only have two fans or something like that. The test jig for that was two modest "computer grade" fans plus an Intel CPU fan, so the SINGLE fan current draw isn't quite that high. But I absolutely guarantee that I have fans in stock that will eat north of 30W without blinking. So this is very much dependent on what YOUR equipment is going to consume. You can't just grab numbers out of your butt.

 

[Constantin]

So this is very much dependent on what YOUR equipment is going to consume. You can't just grab numbers out of your butt.

This is a really good point. For one, even if a kill-a-watt shoes nothing more than 125W on startup, remember that it's not a Yokogawa WT310, it's not capturing data by the millisecond, and hence one is likely to miss the true top peak draw with an instrument as crude as a Kill-a-watt.

Secondly, folk love quiet fans for the lower power draw, etc. but then don't account for the potential equipment trouble that spawns if some motherboard components don't get the screaming delta-fan @13,000 RPM treatment. My LSI HBA built into the motherboard is likely the hottest component by far yet only had a passive Al heatsink mounted to it by the OEM, just as the CPU did.

Both now feature dedicated fans but as @jgreco has previously pointed out, a quartet+ of screaming delta fans in a server case sharing the load of blowing air across passive heat sinks is more redundant and safer (even if louder + more power hungry) than relying on a single fan per critical motherboard component. Quality OEMs like SuperMicro make molded wind-tunnel covers for their motherboard / case combinations for a reason - to direct air from multiple, redundant sources at everything that needs the air most, to minimize boundary layers, and so on.

But all the above is why I sought to buy the most efficient PSU I could - only Ti has to show high efficiency at 10% power draw.

 

[neetbuck]

As I wrote, don't buy over 650W.

I didn't really understand the reason, I've reread your post a few times and I'm a bit confused - not that i doubt you, i just want to understand for myself.

also another question, given the answer from @jgreco about the 15-30W fans, would it be reasonable to assume that the max input power mentioned in the specs for both of the fans isn't the real max power they might draw in unison.. or did I misunderstand what he said.

But all the above is why I sought to buy the most efficient PSU I could - only Ti has to show high efficiency at 10% power draw.

I haven't found any Ti sfx psus when I looked around

 

[jgreco]

also another question, given the answer from @jgreco about the 15-30W fans, would it be reasonable to assume that the max input power mentioned in the specs for both of the fans isn't the real max power they might draw in unison.. or did I misunderstand what he said.

The example given was for three fans in parallel, as pictured in the thread. This was in response to a statement by a poster that cited an unrealistically small amperage number for a similar setup. I believe that it is good to look both at rated and also measured specs when calculating fan current. A simplistic stall current measurement for a fan may be measured by jamming a spudger in it while running. If you have six fans in your system, it is unlikely that five or six will stall all at once, but it is worth bearing in mind that one or two stalling after they've been in use for half a decade may be a very reasonable guess. It is important to calculate realistic degraded situations when calculating stuff like fan current. If it is as clear as mud to you, then good, my suggestion is just not to skimp. Fans can and sometimes do take unexpected amounts of power.

 

[Etorix]

I didn't really understand the reason, I've reread your post a few times and I'm a bit confused - not that i doubt you, i just want to understand for myself.

Although the PSU has to be sized for the maximal current draw (and some more, as safety margin), it will, most of the time, only deliver a fraction of that (idle CPU, and just a few watts per drive to keep the platters spinning). PSUs are not very efficient at very low loads, so, while undersizing is bad, it's also best not to vastly oversize.
Compared with a 500 W PSU, a 1 kW PSU would cost more at purchase and may well also cost more in operation because it is very inefficient at <10% load and ends up drawing more current from the wall than a 500 W PSU operating at 10-15% load for the same output. The extra energy being dissipated as heat inside the NAS, this is a triple lose situation…

 

[Constantin]

I haven't found any Ti sfx psus when I looked around

IIRC, I didn't see any of them either. That may have more than anything to do with the lack of a market for small, highly-efficient PSUs outside of some custom-built stuff. SFX as it is seems to be a small market compared to to ATX.

 

[neetbuck]

I believe that it is good to look both at rated and also measured specs when calculating fan current. A simplistic stall current measurement for a fan may be measured by jamming a spudger in it while running

I only have rated specs available for these fans, as I do not have a system with which to test them or a clue how to do it anyway. It's only two fans: a CPU fan - Noctua NF-A6x25 PWM [1.1W] and a fan for the HDDs - Noctua NF-A12x15 PWM [1.6W]. Given this information, what would be a good "guess" on how much current they might draw in a worst case scenario such as the one's you mentioned earlier? is sticking to 15-30W when factoring them into my calculations a good precaution to take?

this is a triple lose situation…

thanks, I understand now with your explanation.

 

[Etorix]

At this point, it doesn't really matters whether the fans draw 2 W or 20 W: The difference is much less than the safety margin that is thrown to round the calculation.

 

[neetbuck]

At this point, it doesn't really matters whether the fans draw 2 W or 20 W: The difference is much less than the safety margin that is thrown to round the calculation.

I'm not sure what you mean, if i were to determine that it's better to count the fans as higher wattage for safety reasons... wouldn't i have to recalculate a new safety margin given the new numbers?

Also I'm looking at my options given the spectrum that Davvo calculated given the wattages of each component (450W - 650W) and I want to ask if there's a better part of that spectrum for me to shoot for?

 

[Davvo]

Also I'm looking at my options given the spectrum that Davvo calculated given the wattages of each component (450W - 650W) and I want to ask if there's a better part of that spectrum for me to shoot for?

The lower, the better.