Alder Lake / Raptor Lake Build Advice | P Core only CPU vs P+E Core CPU | TrueNAS Scale Angelfish vs Bluefin | MW34-SP0 W680 Motherboard

[KingKaido]

Hello all,
This is my first post so hopefully i don't break any rules, but firstly i must thank this forum for providing a plethora of information on all types of server builds for TrueNAS! Also sorry the title is so long but i feel it best describes my question /the discussion at a glance

So essentially i have a Gigabyte MW34-SP0 W680 Motherboard ordered and coming in 2 weeks,
the main benefits of this motherboard is:

• Supports Intel 12th Gen (Alder Lake) and 13th Gen (Raptor Lake) CPUs, and has Power Delivery for 241~W sustained (So i9-13900 Support )
• ECC Support and better yet DDR4, so it'll be way cheaper/available than non-existent (to consumers anyway) DDR5 ECC RAM
• Has 2 x PCIe Gen 5.0 Slot (Either x16x0 or x8x8) & PCIe Gen 3 x4 Slot (Which i'll probably use for a 10GbE NIC in the future)
• Has 2.5 GbE Intel Lan port & 1GbE port for IPMI (Also has a PCIe Gen 3 x1 Slot for another 2.5GbE NIC)
• 4 x M.2 PCIe Gen 4.0 M.2 NVME Slots with 4 Sata Ports or 3 x M.2 PCie 4.0 M.2 NVME with 8 Sata Ports Topology (When i get more than 4 drives ill most likely get a HBA Card in IT Mode)

This motherboard is amazing on paper, which is why i purchased it, but from reading other forum posts Here & Here, that due to scheduling difficulties for threads on P+E Core CPUs & Kernel versions, it is best to to get a P Core only CPU which would limit me to only i5-12600 (6 P Cores) for this build, but reading up on TrueNas Scale 22 (Bluefin), they support P+E Cores (although not as good as windows but good enough) and its iGPU (Which will help me massively for Plex (but not needed right this minute so i can just disable the iGPU)).
Another thing is SCALE 22.12.RC.1 is due to be released on 15th November, which is roughly when my server build will be complete, but TrueNas docs state that RC versions is only for |Home Users Suitable for non-critical deployments|, but the actual SCALE 22.12.0 & SCALE 22.12.1 versions are due to be released 13th December 2022 & 7th February 2023 Respectively, which is some time away.

So this leads me to my first three questions

1. Will the i be able to use the i5-12600 and under CPUs on the more stable Scale 22.02 (Angelfish) without any problems since its all P Cores like a normal CPU (But with no iGPU support)? Answer is Yes according to here (#18 I just realised lmao)

2. If I start with SCALE 22.12.RC.1, is a RC version good enough for normal ZFS NAS Operation and VMs?

3. Does SCALE 22 (Bluefin) support Raptor Lake CPUs (or do those cpus need an even newer Kernel) or only Alder Lake? as my ideal CPU right now would be the i5-13600K due to its fast single thread aswell as 6P + 8E Cores (For multiple Containers & VMs) with the option of upgrading to i9-13900 in the future

^ I don't know the answers to these as of yet but i will continue on.
This is my proposed build at the moment (I know theres tables but its got weird formatting)
CPU Intel i5-12600 or i5-13600k
CPU Cooler Noctua NH-D15(S) or Artic Liquid Freezer Cooler II 280
Motherboard Gigabyte MW34-SP0 W680 Motheboard
Memory Kingston 3200MHz 32GB Ram Kit (KSM32ED8/32ME)
#That is not in the QVL list but the 16GB version 16ME is supported so hopefully its fine (Will upgrade to 128GB in future)
Storage Boot = 2 x 120GB Kingston A400 SSD | Mirror
SSD POOL (VMs & Containers) = 2 x 1TB Samsung 970 Evo Plus | Mirror
Main Storage Pool = 2 x 14TB WD Red Plus | Mirror (r/datahoarder say they are one of the quietist big drives, also the Ultrastar HC550 but $$$
Then i will expand my Pool in Striped Mirrors, so 2x14TB + 2x14TB + 2x14TB (I heard you can mix HDD sizes aslong as its still a mirror)
(i do want to go to RaidZ2 once i hit 6-8 drives but i do like the higher read and Iops mirroring brings, also less complex & easier resilvering

*Future* Fusion Pool = 2 x 2 TB Samsung 980 Pro (With Small Block set to 32Kb for caching) | Mirror (Keeps the HDDs spun down)
External HDD Backup = 10TB Ironwolf (addition backup for core stuff)

Case Fractal Design Define 7 (Up to 14 HDD and has noise reduction side panels, will add some Noctua fans for more airflow)
PSU Fractal Design Ion+ 760P Platinum ( I know its overkill but i got it for a really good price (cheaper than 550W Plat PSUs))
UPS Eaton 3S 700 (Open to suggestions) but it has USB Connectivity and is supported in TrueNas

Main Usecases
NAS, Pi-Hole, *arr Stack (Radarr, Sonarr, Prowlarr etc), NextCloud, QBit, Containers/Automation Scipts for my business (Mainly Python 3 & JS) & a couple VMs (Linux & Windows)
(im coming from a Qnap-453D so itll be a massive upgrade where i can finally do alot on the server)

4. How does this build look so far?

I also want to acknowledge my other options such as AM4, AM5 and older Intel Core or Xeons

• AM4 - Initially i was going to build an AM4 system using the asrock rack X570D4U or the X4704D4U, but because im not able to get the -2L2T/BCM versions in UK(where i live) and the fact theres not that much PCIe Lanes on the Micro-ATX Motherboards (I know bifurcation is a thing but would get very messy using adapters, it wouldn't be worth it to spend so much on a platform that has reached its EOL, also i felt the 5950x although amazing with its 16 Full Cores, but it just doesn't keep up with 12th & 13th Gen in single thread (in which most programs favour) and i wanted to build something that has longevity in mind, hence the somewhat bleeding edge approach, also intel has an iGPU which is useful for Plex.
• AM5 - Theres no server grade motherboards out (except from the gigabyte MC13-LE0 & MC13-LE1, but its not spectacular in any way) and theres no DDR5 ECC RAM out right now, (i know normal DDR5 has some inbuilt ECC but its not the best implementation, moreso a basic version), also i think AM5 & Ryzen 7000 is expensive at the moment, intel really did make people question if its worth buying anything lower than a 7900X with their 13th Gen CPUs
• Threadripper - id love to be able to afford that but its out of my price range *sad times*.
• Older Intel and Xeon WS - I know they have the 'tried and tested' badge for stability, but i feel the performance vs a 12th/13th gen will be a pretty big difference, i saw yesterday that an i5-13600k outperforms an I9-10900k, competition from both sides has really benefitted us the consumers and resulted into big generational leaps.

This leads me to my final question
5. Is there a reason to go AMD or older generation Intel (other than power consumption and maybe cost)?

TL:DR

The main question is, will raptor lake be supported on TrueNAS Scale 22.12 (Bluefin) and is the RC version of TrueNAS good to use for basic NAS stuff and VMs until the proper release comes out?
or should i stick with i5-12600 on 22.02 Angelfish until 13th Gen TrueNas servers are more common?
And does my build look okay?

Thank you for reading!

 

[joeschmuck]

Answers:
2: RC means it's still a testing version that is expected to be very close to the final version, all major issues should be worked out. Many people will run RC versions and then report any problems they have. It is not suitable for an office/critical data use just because it's not deemed 100% bug proof/tested. So for a home system, if you want to give it a try then you can. If you have problems then you should report them so they are addressed.

5: This depends more on what you want to do and if power consumption is a big issue for you. Most people should purchase a high quality product that they can afford. Since it sounds like you want to Transcode using Plex, the faster the CPU the better. Or better yet, have the devices playing the content do the transcoding if bandwidth is not an issue.

I can't answer your other questions, I do not have the experience with the new CPUs with all those fancy cores. I do like both AMD and Intel but I don't think you need a high core count to make things happen, 4 cores should be good you should check into Plex to see how it benefits from more cores.

You do not need ultra fast RAM, it will be a waste of money. DDR4 is fine. ECC should be a must.

 

[KingKaido]

Thank you @joeschmuck for replying!
Okay that makes, RC is good enough for my basic needs, until the proper release comes out, then i can fully expand the server,

Oh yeah the plex client doing the transcoding is a thing, i hadn't considered that buts its an easy solution lmao

Yeah i understand, i think the reason for wanting more cores is when i run a VM, im assuming it allocates the cores / ram to the VM so its no longer shared.

And that is true, i need to check the price of lower MHz ECC Ram.

Again thanks for replying!

 

[nabsltd]

it is best to to get a P Core only CPU which would limit me to only i5-12600 (6 P Cores) for this build

You could always pick up something like an i7-12700 (8p+4e) and disable the E-cores in BIOS until you get an OS that supports them.

 

[KingKaido]

You could always pick up something like an i7-12700 (8p+4e) and disable the E-cores in BIOS until you get an OS that supports them.

thats actually a good solution! i'd be getting 8P Cores that can multi-thread, then just wait until Bluefin till i can enable the cores

Also Im slowly realising, ill probably have to buy an Alder Lake CPU & a Raptor Lake CPU, test them both and return one of them depending on what works, most likely an i5-13600k & an i7-12700

 

[bcat]

If you don't mind my asking, where were you able to order the MW34-SP0? I've been looking to upgrade my "main" home server to a setup with ECC (small backup box already has ECC RAM), and something like a 12600 with ECC DDR4 offers quite good price/performance, but it's been tricky to find an ATX W680 mobo with DDR4 & IPMI that's actually in stock. The Gigabyte board checks all the boxes for me... except that I can't seem to find it for sale anywhere. :)

 

[KingKaido]

If you don't mind my asking, where were you able to order the MW34-SP0? I've been looking to upgrade my "main" home server to a setup with ECC (small backup box already has ECC RAM), and something like a 12600 with ECC DDR4 offers quite good price/performance, but it's been tricky to find an ATX W680 mobo with DDR4 & IPMI that's actually in stock. The Gigabyte board checks all the boxes for me... except that I can't seem to find it for sale anywhere. :)

Hey, I'm from the UK so your experience might be different, but essentially on the motherboards website i pressed the 'request a quote' button, (i also ticked the 'talk to sales' button) filled it out like a customer (not a business), and then in the query, i think i asked when would this be in-stock and how to buy the motherboard, then a couple days later, one of the verified retailers for the UK, contacted me about putting an order in. And i purchased it from that company, i used PayPal just incase anything goes wrong, but hopefully it's all good :)

They said they have to order it directly from Gigabyte Taiwan, hence why it will take 3 weeks to deliver to me. I don't think any retailers are selling it 'in-stock' it's most likely ordering it from Taiwan, then sending to the customer.

Hopefully this helps!

 

[KingKaido]

Also i found out on another forum that the motherboard doesn't support Raptop Lake CPUs yet because it needs a BIOS Update, and the BIOS update doesn't have an ETA rn so most likely ill get an i5-12600 or i7-12700 (and disable the E Cores) until the BIOS update comes out.

 

[bcat]

Hey, I'm from the UK so your experience might be different, but essentially on the motherboards website i pressed the 'request a quote' button, (i also ticked the 'talk to sales' button) filled it out like a customer (not a business), and then in the query, i think i asked when would this be in-stock and how to buy the motherboard, then a couple days later, one of the verified retailers for the UK, contacted me about putting an order in. And i purchased it from that company, i used PayPal just incase anything goes wrong, but hopefully it's all good :)

Ah, fascinating. Thanks for the info! I had assumed Gigabyte's sales channel would only work with enterprises, system integrators, etc., not "random programmer who wants one mobo to use at home". But since you had luck going with that route, I sent them a request. We'll see if they respond, how exorbitant the pricing is, etc. :)

As for lack of Raptor Lake support, that doesn't bother me today. For my use case, a 12600 should be fine for several years, and there's always the possibility of a future upgrade to a chip with more cores down the road (e.g., after Scale's e-core support is proven out in, say, a few years).

 

[Lipsum Ipsum]

If you don't mind my asking, where were you able to order the MW34-SP0? I've been looking to upgrade my "main" home server to a setup with ECC (small backup box already has ECC RAM), and something like a 12600 with ECC DDR4 offers quite good price/performance, but it's been tricky to find an ATX W680 mobo with DDR4 & IPMI that's actually in stock. The Gigabyte board checks all the boxes for me... except that I can't seem to find it for sale anywhere. :)

NextWarehouse dot com has it listed (SKU: 4573162) at $750. Not linking directly to it as I've never bought anything from there and the site just feels sketchy. It's not even https, but then again a lot of Gigabyte's "official" distributor and retailer sites don't look that much better.

If that is the MSRP, you can get a SuperMicro X13SAE-F for $470 at ProVantage. You'll gain a PCIe x4 slot and an extra gigabit port, but won't be able to reuse your memory. You could get a single 32GB ECC module and still be out ahead though in total cost.

I personally decided to go down the latter path. The modules came yesterday, the board is "out for delivery" today, and the rest of the components should be here tomorrow. I decided to splurge and am looking forward to having some fun geeking out this weekend. :)

 

[KingKaido]

NextWarehouse dot com has it listed (SKU: 4573162) at $750. Not linking directly to it as I've never bought anything from there and the site just feels sketchy. It's not even https, but then again a lot of Gigabyte's "official" distributor and retailer sites don't look that much better.

If that is the MSRP, you can get a SuperMicro X13SAE-F for $470 at ProVantage. You'll gain a PCIe x4 slot and an extra gigabit port, but won't be able to reuse your memory. You could get a single 32GB ECC module and still be out ahead though in total cost.

I personally decided to go down the latter path. The modules came yesterday, the board is "out for delivery" today, and the rest of the components should be here tomorrow. I decided to splurge and am looking forward to having some fun geeking out this weekend. :)

thats interesting, i paid around £470 for my Gigabyte motherboard, and that prices includes a 20% VAT, roughly 550$

Also if you got the time, would you be able to share your PC/Server build? it would be very interesting to know what route you went in terms of CPU, CPU Cooler, HDD/SSD & PC Case choice :)

 

[Whattteva]

Wow, since when does Intel offer ECC on their i5 and i7 lines? I'm quite shocked that it's no longer locked behind Xeon's.

The way I remembered it, you either had to go to low voltage i3's or Xeons. I must've been out of the loop for a while.

 

[Lipsum Ipsum]

Wow, since when does Intel offer ECC on their i5 and i7 lines? I'm quite shocked that it's no longer locked behind Xeon's.

The way I remembered it, you either had to go to low voltage i3's or Xeons. I must've been out of the loop for a while.

I believe it's just been since the W680 chipset was released.

 

[Ericloewe]

I half-expect them to update ark in a few months to scrub ECC support from a bunch of non-Xeon CPUs.

 

[Whattteva]

I believe it's just been since the W680 chipset was released.

Does this mean the HW recommendation guide should be updated? It only specifies i3's, Pentiums, and Xeons right now.

If this Intel ARK doc is true:

Code:

Memory Specifications
Max Memory Size (dependent on memory type)
128 GB
Memory Types
Up to DDR5 4800 MT/s
Up to DDR4 3200 MT/s
Max # of Memory Channels
2
Max Memory Bandwidth
76.8 GB/s
ECC Memory Supported ‡
Yes 

Considering that now we can get 128 GB ECC RAM on an i7, I may have to start reinventing my server builds and shift away from the Xeons. Heck, even the i5-12600 also supports 128 GB ECC RAM. What a world we live in now where Intel is no longer segmenting ECC support?!?! Did they finally take what Linus Torvalds said to heart?

I forgot that you also gain QuickSync with the Core i5/7 series... while still also maintaining VT-x/d. Is there even still any reason to go Xeons?

 

[KingKaido]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcLcCfReeOQ&t=2s&ab_channel=Level1Techs

This is a really good showcase of the W680 motherboard, Alderlake & ECC on i5+, Wendell even said it out performs older 2x8 Core Xeons

It's has made me really excited about my build XD

 

[Whattteva]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcLcCfReeOQ&t=2s&ab_channel=Level1Techs

This is a really good showcase of the W680 motherboard, Alderlake & ECC on i5+, Wendell even said it out performs older 2x8 Core Xeons

It's has made me really excited about my build XD

Quite honestly, for vast majority of home users, a router on that hardware is way overkill. I'm running my OPNsense on a lowly i3-3220T from 2013 lol and it doesn't break past 40% CPU usage at 350 Mbps. It does consume very low power even though it's from 2013 due to it being a T part. For most people, they'll be fine with just repurposing an old computer for zero cost.

 

[KingKaido]

Quite honestly, for vast majority of home users, a router on that hardware is way overkill. I'm running my OPNsense on a lowly i3-3220T from 2013 lol and it doesn't break past 40% at 350 Mbps. For most people, they'll be fine with just repurposing an old computer for zero cost.

Yeah i agree in terms of just doing a router, but in the video he virtualise the router OS for 10Gb routing (which is pretty intense) plus still has room for containers, all with a i5-12400 (6P cores)

 

[Lipsum Ipsum]

Does this mean the HW recommendation guide should be updated?

IMO it should wait until P/E cores are fully supported with a full release. It's two different features, but they're still both dependent on 12th/13th gen CPUs.

If it is updated prior to the E cores being supported, at minimum it should be clearly noted with the ECC support (and anywhere else that'd "recommend" those i5/i7/i9 CPUs that the E cores cause issues.

Did they finally take what Linus Torvalds said to heart?

"Linus Torvalds? Is he that YouTuber guy?" - Intel Marketing

I think it's a variety of factors:

• It's actually useful.
• Memory manufacturers partially worked around the need for Intel to allow it
• ECC is already part of the CPU so it doesn't cost Intel additional to manufacturer it.
• Lost sales to AMD even with just unofficial support

It still limited to only the workstation 'W' chipset for now. Aside from ECC support and vPro/AMT, it doesn't enable anything that the much more popular 'Z' chipset for enthusiast/gamers that has far larger sales. That leaves the workstation boards a niche market and much more expensive.

Is there even still any reason to go Xeons?

For use with TrueNAS and similar types of NAS and media servers, home labs, and SMB server use, no I wouldn't say that there's much of a reason over the "low end" Xeon E.

Xeon D, Xeon W, and Xeon Scalable all have significant advantages when it comes to their support for more sockets, cores, PCIe lanes, and/or memory. But other than that, nothing else important.

 

[ChrisRJ]

The one thing to be aware of is how big a percentage of power consumption can be saved by the choice of the CPU. If you have 6+ disks running 24x7 (spin-down is not a good idea for lifetime), then saving 10-20 watts on board+CPU is not necessarily a game changer.

Of couse it always depends on the individual use-case, but I went consciously for a used and relatively old motherboard. It allowed me to save a ton of money because I can use DDR3 ECC RDIMMs (at the time I got 32 GB modules for 40 Euros). I do not say this is a great choice for everybody. But too many people (like myself before that) do not consider used enterprise gear for board, CPU, and RAM. At least giving it a thought is absolutely worth it.