Help me build my first NAS

[ChrisRJ]

Why would someone go with ZFS if they wouldn't care about their data?

We recently had quite a few people who wanted to pursue TrueNAS because of some YouTube video. That is not necessarily a bad thing. But there is a lot of such videos out there that do more harm than good. My favorite at the moment are those who promote a Raspberry Pi as the system base.

 

[Davvo]

Server-grade Raspberry Pi system: check.

 

[Arwen]

Part of the problem with ECC, is that a certain CPU vendor declared that laptop, desktop and low end servers did not need ECC. This means people improvising servers have fewer choices.

I do agree that ECC is highly desirable. But, my desktop, laptops, and miniature media server don't support ECC. And yes, I use ZFS, mirrored OS pools and either mirrored data pools, or in the case of the miniature media server, striped data pool. (For more storage because it's mostly static and I have good backups.)


The frustrating thing about ECC memory, is that with higher densities, both die path size shrinkages and more cells, we have a much higher chance of bit flips than any time before.

In fact, I would prefer to see double bit detect and correction, and triple bit detect ECC memory. DDR5's internal ECC is okay for what it is. However, I'd want to see 16 bits exposed externally too.

 

[joeschmuck]

Why would someone go with ZFS if they wouldn't care about their data?

I'm going to answer this because I think you are being serious.

I find that people often are using TrueNAS because it's easy and relatively inexpensive to build a NAS. It has nothing to do with ZFS, heck most folks don't even know what ZFS is nor that it matters. This goes along with ECC as well. Why do you think we have so many systems built here that completely miss the mark? Someone watches a Youtube video that claims how easy and great TrueNAS is, and they have no idea what is really required. Hey, a basic computer will run it so it must all be good. There are a lot of folks here that try to use cheap and less than minimum hardware to get the NAS operational. Some folks you can't talk into spending any more money. Maybe they don't have it.

Now there are some folks who do want a good solid NAS and will do their research on TrueNAS and ZFS, they will listen to the regulars here and build a reasonable system. They want a reliable system and will put forth the effort and money required.

So yes, people will build a ZFS system and they really don't care about their data. Hey, it could be for hosting movies, we get a lot of that here. If I lost a bunch of movies, well I might be unhappy but it's not the end of the world.

Just sayin'

 

[Nomad]

Build and learn. It's the only way. I have two ZFS systems. One of them is a hella old system(AMD Phenom II X6 1055T, 16GB DDR3 1333 ECC, M4A89GTD PRO/USB3, Realtek 8111E) that does my super important backups from my primary system.

There is a lot of math and reading involved, but due to the way ZFS works not having ECC can destroy your GOOD data during a scrub. This means that your data can be perfectly fine... system starts a scrub, gets a bit flip and then starts trashing all your data. If you aren't running ECC then you don't care about the data you are storing if you are using ZFS.

In 10 years I've never had an issue listening to the advice from the pros of the board. I have however seen 1000 of posts from people who ignored the recommendations posting a lot more than my 114 in 10 years. :)

 

[Arwen]

The ZFS scrub of death due to lack of ECC memory is in theory a real issue. Practically, it would be very rare. The problem with with "very rare" is that ZFS now has a tremendous amount data stored world wide. So the chances of it happening to someone using a server without ECC memory is ever increasing.


To give a similar but unrelated example. I have a miniature media server with 1TB mSATA SSD & a 2TB 2.5" HDD. A piece from each is carved out for the OS pool mirror using ZFS. The rest is a striped ZFS pool for my media. No redundancy on that data because I have multiple backups. This server is old, probably from 2015.

Every now and then I see a bad block and have to restore the file from backups. Every time it was a video file because they are much larger than the music files, so statistically more likely to occur on larger files.

However, once I got a corrected ZFS error. I spent weeks thinking about out HOW ZFS corrected something that had no redundancy. Well, I figured it out. ZFS Metadata, like directory entries, have 2 copies. Critical Metadata has 3 or more copies. So my little server lost a block in Metadata of some sort. Rare, but it happened to me.

This is a simplified example of a rare event actually happening.

 

[LogOuT]

I am considering some changes to my build.

My New Plan-
Case- Jonsbo N1 (already bought)
Motherboard- Gigabyte H610I (only ITX in the budget)
CPU- AMD Ryzen 5 Pro 4650G (6C/12T) and use the stock cooler.
RAM - 64GB (2x 32GB) DDR4 32GB/2666 ECC REG Hynix
Storage- 4X WD Red plus (4TB- RaidZ1) , 1X M.2 SSD (512GB - boot), 1X M.2 SSD (512GB- L2cache)
PSU- CoolerMaster 650W 80+ Gold (SFX).

Can you see if the RAM will fit will this motherboard and CPU?
Do you see any other things that need to be changed?

 

[Davvo]

Can you see if the RAM will fit will this motherboard and CPU?

The PRO series should work with ECC, but about that specific CPU I am finding discordant infos.
That motherboard does work with unbuffered ECC, but it disables the ECC module.

Since the RAM you posted is registered (read server-grade), it won't work. If you change it with unbuffered ECC RAM, the system will work without the ECC functionality.

 

[Etorix]

You may not need a L2ARC at all. One drive less.
For boot, the cheapest M.2 drive you may find will do great. Any $9.99 16 GB Optane M10 available second-hand nearby?

All in the name of saving so you may find a better combination of motherboard and CPU. H610 will NOT work with Ryzen.

 

[Davvo]

H610 will NOT work with Ryzen.

Darn, you are right. I totally tought he had picked a compatible mobo, what a colossal blunder on my part.

 

[LogOuT]

I think i mistyped the old motherboard as the new one (h610i is for intel)
does this motherboard will support ECC with ryzen 5 pro 4650G?
Gigabyte b550i aorus pro ax

 

[ChrisRJ]

Is there a specific reason for not looking at a used server motherboard?

Also, the argument of ITX and budget makes no sense. ITX is a relatively rare form factor, so it is likely more expensive than micro ATX or ATX.

 

[LogOuT]

Is there a specific reason for not looking at a used server motherboard?

Also, the argument of ITX and budget makes no sense. ITX is a relatively rare form factor, so it is likely more expensive than micro ATX or ATX.

I live in Israel, and we don't have a second-hand computer hardware market.
And I want to find here some components that I can have a warranty (if I am buying from a local store)

 

[Etorix]

I think i mistyped the old motherboard as the new one (h610i is for intel)
does this motherboard will support ECC with ryzen 5 pro 4650G?
Gigabyte b550i aorus pro ax

It may boot with ECC RAM in there, but no-one can tell you whether ECC will actually work and do something. Not even Gigabyte, and expressly NOT AMD.
The 2.5 GbE Realtek NIC is an unknown quantity with TrueNAS. Nominal support in SCALE and CORE (may need some tunable), but not enough hours in the field to assess if it behaves better than the 8211.

As pointed by @ChrisRJ, you've peinted yourself into a corner by going for a mini-ITX case (wish for "small build", I guess). The size comes with a cost: Mini-ITX builds are easily more expensive than micro-ATX or even full ATX, and there are less options for parts—especially for a server.
Any change you may backtrack on this, and try to go micro-ATX? If not, you may try and go with your pick of consumer parts to have a first experience with TrueNAS: It will probably work, but it is far from optimal or recommended.

 

[LogOuT]

Ok, so in conclusion, there is a plan for the ITX NAS.

My New New Plan-
Case- Jonsbo N1 (already bought)
Motherboard- Gigabyte b550i aorus pro AX
CPU- AMD Ryzen 5 Pro 4650G (6C/12T) and use the stock cooler.
RAM - 32GB (2x 16GB) Crucial DDR4 2666 PC4-19200 ECC 1.2V - CL19 (supported by the motherboard support list)
Storage- 4X WD Red plus (4TB- RaidZ1) , 1X M.2 SSD (512GB - boot), 1X M.2 SSD (512GB- L2cache optional)
PSU- CoolerMaster 650W 80+ Gold (SFX).

I know that AMD doesn't officially support the ECC, but Gigabyte lists the specific memory module on the memory support list.
Do you have any recommendations?
And in case I already have 2 M.2 SSD from another computer and two slots on the motherboard, what would you recommend using the other drive? L2Cach\Log\reserve\copy of the OS\other

@Etorix, in the case of the 2.5GbE, I don't need the total bandwidth now, I only use 1GbE on the main router for now.

 

[ChrisRJ]

I know that AMD doesn't officially support the ECC, but Gigabyte lists the specific memory module on the memory support list.

You should check what supported means exactly. In the past there have been cases where it was basically "the board will boot and run with ECC RAM, but not make use of any of the error-correcting functionality". I don't know if this is a thing from the past or still around.

 

[joeschmuck]

RAM - 32GB (2x 16GB) Crucial DDR4 2666 PC4-19200 ECC 1.2V - CL19 (supported by the motherboard support list)

You need to be specific here, actually the part number is : Crucial CT16G4WFD8266 which are are 16GB modules. If you buy some other ECC RAM module, it may work but you take that risk that it won't work because the manufacturer hasn't tested it.

I know that AMD doesn't officially support the ECC, but Gigabyte lists the specific memory module on the memory support list.

That may be true and maybe ECC will actually work but trying to prove it works is difficult.

I know this may be frustrating for you but we are pointing these things out because we are trying to help you.

So, I found the Asus website states that the CPU you have selected (Pro version) does support ECC with a motherboard that uses the B550 chipset. Now that is the Asus website, I didn't see that on the Gigabyte website. But then again I didn't look that hard. I would recommend that you search the internet for your motherboard and if it supports ECC properly with the CPU version you plan to use. My quick research says it will but that is a risk I might take for myself. I would not recommend it to anyone without a lot more proof on my part. So you can just buy it or do more research. Same goes with the RAM modules, get the correct model or take the risk.

And in case I already have 2 M.2 SSD from another computer and two slots on the motherboard, what would you recommend using the other drive? L2Cach\Log\reserve\copy of the OS\other

I thought we have previously given you advice, no L2Arc, No Intent Log. You do not need this kind of stuff and it likely doesn't meet the requirements of an Intent Log. When you shove 96GB RAM into your machine, maybe then you will have a purpose for an L2ARC or Intent Log. I would not use the extra M.2 SSD in this machine unless you wanted to create a boot mirror. Sounds like a waste of a module to me but many people do this.