Noob build with some questions

camus

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moving from 2bay QNAP. I have planned out the following hardware (prices shown if already purchased)

case: node 804
mobo: Asus PRIME B550M-A ($50)
cpu: Ryzen 5 5600X ($75)
psu: https://www.amazon.com/FSP-Solution-Platinum-Efficiency-FSP500-50FSPT/dp/B01N4IGM0O ($70)
harddrives: 6x exos enterprise + 2x WD red 16TB, probably in a single raidz2 vdev
os drive: 500gb nvme drive I had on hand
sata expansion: 9207-8i PCIE3.0 6Gbps HBA ($40)

As for memory, I was trying to figure out if ECC is necessary. As far as I can tell this memory should work with my mobo: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074F4D6SM
the question is, is that correct? As well, for the same price as 32gb ecc I could get 64gb of non-ecc memory instead, which would be better? I'm not really *super* concerned about data integrity, and I'd like to be able to cache metadata somewhere so navigation is snappy.

Also any other input would be appreciated
 

somethingweird

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Are you planning to use ethernet on that mobo (Realtek)? Might want get an intel NIC card instead.

 

camus

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Are you planning to use ethernet on that mobo (Realtek)? Might want get an intel NIC card instead.


Was planning on expanding with a card as needed.. though I was looking at 2.5Gbe mobos as well. As long as it's an add-on rather than a wasted purchase I can decide later
 

2twisty

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ECC Memory WILL work with any ryzen processor. Motherboard compatibility is usually pretty good too, but check the specs of that board. Are you planning to run jails/apps on this? More RAM is always better when it comes to ZFS. ZFS will eat as much RAM as you can give it.

I run 2 TN boxes. One is my main production machine, and it has ECC. The other ( a backup target) does not. If you can support ECC and afford it, I say go for it since it will add another layer to your data protection while data is in RAM waiting to go in or out. If your use is not mission-critical, you can safely skip ECC. The ZFS crowd used to say that ECC was an inviolable requirement, but lots and lots of TN boxes out there don't run it and have not reported much in the way of RAM-error-based data corruption.

If your budget doesn't allow for 64GB of ECC, then get the non-ECC, since in your case, more ram is likely better than the protection that the ECC gives you.

Definitely pick up an intel NIC. the dual 10GB RJ45 boards are reasonably inexpensive, but I don't think they are 2.5G capable since that standard is relatively recent. I don't know if there are server-grade 2.5G nics or not. If you use SCALE, your RealTek NIC will likely function, but CORE is likely to either not work at all or be so flakey that its unusable. The general consensus is to get intel nics since they seem to be very very reliable.

Also, if you can avoid mixing drive models, that's best, but not a deal breaker. Since you don't have a price listed next to that line item, I assume you have not bought the drives yet. Just get all identical drives if you can.

Also, as I am learning in my own problem threads, if you plan to do any block storage (for VMs, etc) you will not want to have that data stored on any RaidZ, you will want mirrors. If you are using it as a NAS for bulk file storage, RaidZ is great. If you plan to do both, build two pools, one mirrored and one RaidZ.
 

camus

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ECC Memory WILL work with any ryzen processor. Motherboard compatibility is usually pretty good too, but check the specs of that board. Are you planning to run jails/apps on this? More RAM is always better when it comes to ZFS. ZFS will eat as much RAM as you can give it.

Seed box and media server as well as VR content, not so much VMs. Potentially would use it for storing machine learning data and models checkpoints and such (I am a machine learning engineer). This is as much a learning project as anything else for me though, for my needs a larger prebuilt NAS would be totally fine TBH

I run 2 TN boxes. One is my main production machine, and it has ECC. The other ( a backup target) does not. If you can support ECC and afford it, I say go for it since it will add another layer to your data protection while data is in RAM waiting to go in or out. If your use is not mission-critical, you can safely skip ECC. The ZFS crowd used to say that ECC was an inviolable requirement, but lots and lots of TN boxes out there don't run it and have not reported much in the way of RAM-error-based data corruption.

Yeah some people in the community seem VERY vocal about how ECC is necessary, IDK. I did find a decent deal (direct from crucial https://www.crucial.com/memory/server-ddr4/mta18asf4g72az-3g2r).. I guess if I'm spending $2k on drives I can spend a little more on the ram..

Also, if you can avoid mixing drive models, that's best, but not a deal breaker. Since you don't have a price listed next to that line item, I assume you have not bought the drives yet. Just get all identical drives if you can.

I saw some power user reccomending the opposite.. I was thinking about it, wouldn't heterogenous mix of drives be better as you reduce the odds of simultaneous failure?
 

2twisty

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I saw some power user reccomending the opposite.. I was thinking about it, wouldn't heterogenous mix of drives be better as you reduce the odds of simultaneous failure?
I bet that's one of those "debate threads." If you can find it, please link it because I'm interested in reading more.

I would agree about simultaneous failure if all your drives came from the same batch and are the same age (in runtime), so I suppose that's where they get that idea from. I would think that the slight differences in drive performance would cause the array to be slightly less efficient.

My solution to that is to buy my drives from multiple vendors so that they are at least from different shipments.

When you say "hosting VR content," What do you mean? Sounds like it could be disk or bandwidth intensive.
 

jgreco

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I'd be cautious here. I think that may be undersized, but I didn't do the math. Please see


I'd class that MB/CPU combo as closest to E5-16xx and the cheat table suggests that you should be up in the 750W range.
  • 7-8 Drives: 554W peak, 198W idle -> SeaSonic G-750 or X-750
 

NickF

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Also, if you can avoid mixing drive models, that's best, but not a deal breaker. Since you don't have a price listed next to that line item, I assume you have not bought the drives yet. Just get all identical drives if you can.
I would agree about simultaneous failure if all your drives came from the same batch and are the same age (in runtime), so I suppose that's where they get that idea from. I would think that the slight differences in drive performance would cause the array to be slightly less efficient.
I saw some power user reccomending the opposite.. I was thinking about it, wouldn't heterogenous mix of drives be better as you reduce the odds of simultaneous failure?


3-1-640x837.jpg


I'll let the data speak for itself on that.

SSD data looks like this

1-2022-SSD-AFR-table.jpg


I will comment on the fact that SSDs are designed to have X amount of data written to them before they fail. If the NAND flash on a pool that was built of several of the same model SSD are all exposed to the same workload for the same period of time, the theoretical likelihood of multiple disk failures is higher for SSDs than HDDs.
 

2twisty

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How does this data prove (or disprove) the idea that you should use the same model of drive in a pool (or at least per vdev)?

I would use this data to choose which drive I bought, but it doesn't tell me that mixing is either good or bad.
 

jgreco

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I saw some power user reccomending the opposite.. I was thinking about it, wouldn't heterogenous mix of drives be better as you reduce the odds of simultaneous failure?

A heterogeneous mix has pros and cons.

It used to be in the old SCSI days that you needed homogenous arrays to take advantage of features such as "spindle sync" which allowed a performance optimization based on synchronizing the disks. I've included this term as search fodder for you if you'd like to find other threads that discuss this.

But here's the summary.

Array vendors used to HAVE to have homogenous arrays to take advantage of certain features. Also, a 1GB disk from Seagate probably didn't have the exact same number of sectors as one from IBM, which meant there was some danger if you couldn't find an exact match. Later, as the features went away (spindle sync went away due to larger read/write caches etc, for example) the array vendors had of course gotten into volume and exclusivity deals with disk manufacturers. For the most part, this worked out just fine, because MOST of the time, disks just worked.

But there were some spectacularly terrible models, I'll include the IBM Desk("Death")Star and Seagate 1TB/1.5TB models as examples. I had one client using the Seagates in a ZFS pool where they had significant problems finishing a resilver to replace a failed drive before another one failed.

So anyways what you get is that there is a generation of storage guys out there who grew up with homogenous pools and will swear up and down that mixing drive models is evil bad and will lead to madness, cats and dogs, living together. But when pressed they will either give you an invalid tech-ish sounding reason, or they won't be able to defend it. You can safely ignore these knuckleheads because they aren't helping by perpetuating old nonsense.

Modern drives are large enough that cache and CPU have overcome the benefits of spindle sync, which no longer exists. SCSI busses are now SAS, which means each disk gets its own channel, rather than shared busses where firmware bugs could cause bus crashes taking out a dozen drives at a shot. RAID controllers sometimes still have preferences for particular firmware releases to be running on the drives, but you're using ZFS which has no such thing.

Heterogeneous pools can have a benefit if built correctly. This means sourcing drives from two or three vendors and creating vdevs with a drive from each vendor in it (so, like, one WD, one Toshiba, one Seagate). This helps protect you against manufacturing run failures, model design flaws, etc.

If you can't do that, the value of heterogeneous pools is somewhat more questionable. If you're building a 12 drive RAIDZ2 with six Seagate and six WD, and a bunch of your Seagates fail, you can easily blow past the two drive tolerance for failure. But if you look at it statistically, how easy is that to do? Not particularly easy.

At the end of the day, I believe that fate comes around looking for the ill-prepared. My key archival pools are 11-drive RAIDZ3 with a warm spare. I haven't lost a drive in a very long time. Fate is far more likely to go pick on someone who did a RAIDZ1 with 11 drives. I've thought about the issues and am prepared for failures. I've carefully toed into the waters with homogeneous pools for my RAIDZ3's after extensively testing them and looking at the failure rates of sites like BackBlaze. I have backup copies of the pool including one thousands of miles away. I do not think it too likely I will lose the data.

Heterogeneous pools are just another factor that you can add to the mix.
 

jgreco

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I would use this data to choose which drive I bought, but it doesn't tell me that mixing is either good or bad.

Mixing a drive with a 7.46% AFR and a drive with a 0.16% AFR results in a vdev with much better reliability characteristics than a vdev with two 7.46% AFR drives. This is basic statistics. If we assume that your goal is to survive failures, this suggests that mixing can be good because it takes advantage of the basic principle that some drives are better than others.

1-Q1-2023-Quarterly-AFR-Table.jpg
 

NickF

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Another way to look at it still is that if you chose a drive with good reliability statistics like 0.16% and build your whole pool with it you are statistically less likely to have failures than buying half drives with a .16% snd half drives with a 7.46 AFR.

For the same reason of course that Mr Grinchiness mentioned it’s just statistics. :)

FWIW if you buy a very expensive enterprise SAN from literally any vendor they will have homogeneous hard drives.
 

2twisty

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Mixing a drive with a 7.46% AFR and a drive with a 0.16% AFR results in a vdev with much better reliability characteristics than a vdev with two 7.46% AFR drives. This is basic statistics. If we assume that your goal is to survive failures, this suggests that mixing can be good because it takes advantage of the basic principle that some drives are better than others.

Then wouldn't the same math say that using two 0.16% drives be better than the mixed version?

Also, you mention that your 11-disk RAIDZ3 has not had a failure in years, but that you feel an 11-disk RAIDZ1 is more prone. Given that both arrays are made of the same disks, the risk of a single disk failure in both of those arrays should be identical. Now, the risk of losing the array is much higher since you can only lose one disk vs three before data loss.
 

2twisty

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Also, lets not hijack this guy's thread. Let's help him figure out how to build his system to handle his video editing bandwidth needs, and I think we can all agree that hetero/homo-geneous drives aren't going to significantly impact things for this guy -- which is why I asked for a link.

@camus , I guess the debate still rages on, and both sides have reasonable logic -- it may simply come down to personal preference.
 

Davvo

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You can totally use drives of the same model and (hopefully) avoid them failing at the same time by buying from different sellers or at different times in order to dodge batch failures.

You should try to stick to the same RPM amongst drives, even with drives of the same manufacturer.

Also, please don't rely too much on the data from backblaze because imho the testing condition and scale are limited and not even between each model.

Regarding ECC memory, the following video might help you but all in all I think it's worth building a system wity it since we are using an OS that's all about resiliency.
 

jgreco

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Also, lets not hijack this guy's thread. Let's help him figure out how to build his system to handle his video editing bandwidth needs, and I think we can all agree that hetero/homo-geneous drives aren't going to significantly impact things for this guy

Thanks for the moderation help, but we do ask that you please leave moderation activities to the moderators. If we are unhappy with the evolution of a thread, we are capable of guiding as necessary.

Then wouldn't the same math say that using two 0.16% drives be better than the mixed version?

The problem is that you do not know that the drives are 0.16% until you have run them for a number of years, which is what establishes the 0.16% AFR. For many years, Seagates were considered to be a gold standard for hard drives, but a rash of engineering issues and production failures around the time of the 1, 1.5, and 3TB drives eventually resulted in overall (not AFR) failure rates of almost 50% on a five year lifecycle for some models. This came as great disappointment and shock to sites that had sailed through the 2000's with good luck on Seagate drives. But some of us remember the early generation Hawk and Barracuda disks in the mid '90's, so it wasn't a huge shock. Likewise, I would NEVER have bought a WD drive back in the mid 2000's but now have a huge inventory of them, mostly shucked out of USB enclosures, with less than a 1% failure rate.

These things operate in cycles and are also difficult to predict. That is why it may be better to carry a heterogeneous inventory of drives, at least in the context of RAID error recovery systems.
 

Etorix

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Then wouldn't the same math say that using two 0.16% drives be better than the mixed version?
If failures are individual, independent, events, yes.
If failures result from the drive's constitution, i.e. are not statistically independent for drives of the same model, it gets complicated…
Note that the number of tested drives vary by up to two orders of magnitude, and that AFR from samples of less than 100 or less than 1000 drives are to be taken with a large amount of salty scepticism.
 

2twisty

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Thanks for the moderation help, but we do ask that you please leave moderation activities to the moderators. If we are unhappy with the evolution of a thread, we are capable of guiding as necessary.

I'll take this to PM.
 

MrGuvernment

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normal WD Reds are SMR drives, you do not want these. the PRO's are the CMR drives
 

Redcoat

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