Curious if PCI-E x2 SATA III card will work

[SangieWolf]

Hi all!

I've researched the crap out of this and super excited to move away from using OpenZFS on my Hackintosh because now that I've made it a tri-boot system, it's inconvenient to have a RAID that only Mac can access so I want to use my old AMD build to run FreeNAS.

I ordered ECC 16 GBs of DDR3 RAM and this really cool 5.25 to 3.5 adapter here https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DGZ42SM/ (I may end up getting a second one).

So I want to run one pool with two vdevs, one vdev having four 3TB drives and another vdev with four 6TB drives in RaidZ1 for each. I'm curious what your thoughts are on this configuration.

The problem is my older computer only has 6 SATA III ports on it (this motherboard http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/mb/introduction.php?S_ID=478). I thought about getting this card http://www.sybausa.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=157 to use. But I didn't know if the Linux drivers can be used from that card or not. Can you install drivers in FreeNAS? Or am I limited to only 6 drives. I also bought a cheap 60GB SSD for FreeNAS so I'd really like to have 9 SATA ports available.

Thanks for your time!

 

[MrToddsFriends]

I thought about getting this card http://www.sybausa.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=157 to use. But I didn't know if the Linux drivers can be used from that card or not.

I'm using the eSATA sister model of this card (Syba SI-PEX40063, Marvell 88SE9235 based, 2 x SATA, 2 x eSATA) for my boot drives in FreeNAS for about 10 months with no apparent problems so far.

@joeschmuck is using exactly the card you are asking for (Syba SI-PEX40062) in one of his systems. See for example this posting and his signature.
https://forums.freenas.org/index.php?threads/your-opinion-on-my-build.61439/#post-436993

While it is general consensus that most (if not all) cheap SATA cards are crap, these two models seem to work quite well. No driver installation is required for Marvell 88SE9235 (or 88SE9215) based cards in FreeNAS.

I can't tell anything about the other components you are planning to use with FreeNAS, though.

 

[Dice]

I want to use my old AMD build to run FreeNAS.

Have you read the hardware guide in the resource section and compared it to your plans?
Typically, the forum contributors advice in line with the guide.

 

[pro lamer]

Have you read the hardware guide in the resource section and compared it to your plans?
Typically, the forum contributors advice in line with the guide.

Do you mean that Intel is recommended more than AMD? Maybe the OP author can check the partially built system stability/compatibility before purchasing more since they have some hardware already...

 

[rvassar]

Hopefully you can return the memory. That motherboard does not support ECC memory, nor do any of the AM3 desktop CPU's. ECC support in AMD processors is constrained to the Opteron line, socket F and newer.

As for the extra SATA ports... Most here will recommend a LSI SAS HBA of some sort, flashed to "IT mode" to deactivate any onboard RAID functions, and a mini-SAS to SATA fanout cable. SAS HBA's can interface with SATA drives, but SAS drive cannot interface with SATA ports.

 

[SangieWolf]

Hopefully you can return the memory. That motherboard does not support ECC memory, nor do any of the AM3 desktop CPU's. ECC support in AMD processors is constrained to the Opteron line, socket F and newer.

As for the extra SATA ports... Most here will recommend a LSI SAS HBA of some sort, flashed to "IT mode" to deactivate any onboard RAID functions, and a mini-SAS to SATA fanout cable. SAS HBA's can interface with SATA drives, but SAS drive cannot interface with SATA ports.

Yeaaah flashing PCI cards and taking out their original functionality sounds scary lol.

So I'm clearly screwed on the RAM due to the desktop motherboard. I guess I just thought since I'm using OpenZFS on my Hackintosh desktop it would be fine. Oops :<

Well I don't think I can return the RAM, but maybe I should find a used server motherboard to use it in... well damn then I would have to get a new CPU.

So why isn't AMD recommended? I checked the hardware guide 2016 R1 (is there a newer one?) and it doesn't say why.

I should stress this is mainly for a home Plex and other media server. I'm a DJ and have lots of FLAC and ALAC files I want to keep backed up.

Unfortunately, being in IT for 15 years, I managed to look like an idiot. I guess anyone is capable of doing that when exploring technology they're not familiar with.

 

[rvassar]

Yeaaah flashing PCI cards and taking out their original functionality sounds scary lol.

It's actually a fairly common thing when dealing with ZFS. ZFS is designed to control the disks directly. Using hardware RAID actually hides information from it that it uses to do its job. Most of the boards people here use are Dell Hx00 controllers that are OEM sourced from LSI. I'll let someone else speak up as to the IT firmware flashing.

So I'm clearly screwed on the RAM due to the desktop motherboard. I guess I just thought since I'm using OpenZFS on my Hackintosh desktop it would be fine. Oops :<

Well I don't think I can return the RAM, but maybe I should find a used server motherboard to use it in... well damn then I would have to get a new CPU.

The nice thing about FreeNAS is it's quite simple to move from one platform to another. The ZFS pools self-organize. ZFS places pool meta-data on each device, such that you don't really even need to plug things back in in any specific order. It eval's each device and reassembles the pool. (Another reason to get rid of the RAID firmware BTW...)

So you run what you got, while you plan a proper build. I'm doing that myself now. Since you're local to me, I'll suggest keeping an eye on Discount Electronics web page. They occasionally list Dell Precision workstations that support unbuffered (not registered) ECC RAM and Xeon CPU's for less than $150. I picked up a T3500 for $72 from them in the last 2 years. They're built like tanks, and can host 6 drives. Parts are cheap, and half of Austin know how to fix them.

So why isn't AMD recommended? I checked the hardware guide 2016 R1 (is there a newer one?) and it doesn't say why.

That's a very good question. I was at Sun while ZFS was being developed. Sun's x86 hardware line was all AMD at the time, so it's not anything about ZFS itself. But... AMD hardware with ECC is uncommon in non-enterprise / non-Sun circles. The statistical unavailability in and of itself is a reason to recommend avoiding it.

I should stress this is mainly for a home Plex and other media server. I'm a DJ and have lots of FLAC and ALAC files I want to keep backed up.

Unfortunately, being in IT for 15 years, I managed to look like an idiot. I guess anyone is capable of doing that when exploring technology they're not familiar with.

You're not an idiot. Storage is it's own little specialty within IT. I have 20+ years in software QA, and 15+ years specializing in I/O intensive software performance. I probably know half the people responsible for ZFS original development. Yet... The crew here teaches me two or three new things a week!

Welcome to the forums!

Rob

 

[joeschmuck]

@joeschmuck is using exactly the card you are asking for (Syba SI-PEX40062) in one of his systems. See for example this posting and his signature.
https://forums.freenas.org/index.php?threads/your-opinion-on-my-build.61439/#post-436993

This card works like a champ and is supported by FreeBSD 9 through 11 which is what FreeNAS versions have been based on. Will is be supported by FreeBSD 12, likely but eventually legacy drivers will go away but it could be many years from now. You must do you due diligence by finding out what hardware FreeBSD supports, and it's not always super clear.

Why I use this SATA card is for two reasons, cost, and I hate having to reprogram firmware just to make FreeNAS work, I'd rather use something that work with the native drivers.

With all of that said, the LSI SATA cards do work fine and sometimes you really need to pick the proper hardware for the purpose of the NAS.

 

[Chris Moore]

@SangieWolf , although I am quoting what Rob said, I am saying this mostly for your benefit and I hope it will provide you some guidance.

Most of the boards people here use are Dell Hx00 controllers that are OEM sourced from LSI. I'll let someone else speak up as to the IT firmware flashing.

While the Dell H200 and H310 (and others) may be popular, they may not be the most popular. I understand that quite a lot of people are using the IBM M1015. There are plenty of options though.
One of the developers behind ZFS / FreeNAS says that, "LSI is the best game in town for add-on storage controllers"... I take the developers at their word.
Source: http://www.freenas.org/blog/a-complete-guide-to-freenas-hardware-design-part-ii-hardware-specifics/

Detailed newcomers' guide to crossflashing LSI 9211 HBA and variants
https://forums.freenas.org/index.ph...o-crossflashing-lsi-9211-hba-and-variants.54/

So you run what you got, while you plan a proper build. I'm doing that myself now. Since you're local to me, I'll suggest keeping an eye on Discount Electronics web page. They occasionally list Dell Precision workstations that support unbuffered (not registered) ECC RAM and Xeon CPU's for less than $150. I picked up a T3500 for $72 from them in the last 2 years. They're built like tanks, and can host 6 drives. Parts are cheap, and half of Austin know how to fix them.

Another decent option is the Dell Precision T7500. You can often pick them up cheap and if you can find one with the second processor board, you can upgrade it all the way to 196GB of Registered ECC memory. I have two of them in my cubicle at work that I use for testing things on. They are able to use the 6 core Xeon x5690 processor at 3.46 GHz, so they are not too shabby.

AMD hardware with ECC is uncommon in non-enterprise / non-Sun circles. The statistical unavailability in and of itself is a reason to recommend avoiding it.

It is mostly about the quality of the hardware. Much of the AMD hardware that people come to the forum wanting to use is old, "gaming rig," gear that was not very good to begin with and now it is old. Some of the latest gear has had compatibility issues. Then there is the ECC support. It is a combination of factors. When making suggestions, we try to advise things that we can feel comfortable will be reliable. I would hate to suggest something and have it fail and put the person's data at risk. It has often been said on the forum that we value their data more than they do, or something along those lines.

You're not an idiot. Storage is it's own little specialty within IT. I have 20+ years in software QA, and 15+ years specializing in I/O intensive software performance. I probably know half the people responsible for ZFS original development. Yet... The crew here teaches me two or three new things a week!

I often wonder how much cumulative experience there is among the frequent contributors here. I have been doing storage since the early 2000s, just after the Y2K craze. I was a hardware tech for several years before that, and I have been doing FreeNAS since 2011 even though I didn't become a member on the forum until later. It is interesting to me, the range of different experience that turns up here. Everyone can have something to contribute.

Unfortunately, being in IT for 15 years, I managed to look like an idiot. I guess anyone is capable of doing that when exploring technology they're not familiar with.

No matter what your background, you are welcome to come and ask questions. Someone here will help you and it might even be you that starts helping others.

 

[Chris Moore]

Taking a couple things from your first post out of order,

But I didn't know if the Linux drivers can be used

Important to know, FreeNAS is not Linux. FreeNAS is based on FreeBSD and that is actually a flavor of Unix.

I thought about getting this card

I am not sure how much that card was going to cost you, but you might want to look at this option as being better, even if it isn't exactly cheaper.
This is a SAS HBA (Host Bus Adapter):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-LS...-P20-IT-Mode-ZFS-FreeNAS-unRAID/162958581156?
With shipping, it is about $58 and you would need to buy special breakout cables to go with it:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-M...-Forward-Breakout-Internal-Cable/371681252206
The pair in this listing will cost about $13 and allow you to connect all 8 drives to the SAS card.
This is what I would call a better solution than adding a SATA card to the system. Use the built-in ports to connect the boot drives or something, but keep the storage on a SAS controller. What I found, after several builds of my own, is that having all the drives on a single controller actually netted me better performance than having the pool split between two controllers. I don't know for sure the reason why, but I would guess that it reduces overhead involved in deciding where to send the data when the software is making writes (same for reads).

You might ask how much difference. When doing a scrub of my main pool, it took around 9 hours when I had the 12 drives evenly split between two SAS controllers. I put the same 12 drives connected to a SAS expander, connected to a single SAS controlelr and the time dropped to around 8 hours. Same drives, same controller, same everything, except all the drives were on one controller instead of two.
Your mileage may vary.

 

[SangieWolf]

This is a SAS HBA (Host Bus Adapter):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-LS...-P20-IT-Mode-ZFS-FreeNAS-unRAID/162958581156?
With shipping, it is about $58 and you would need to buy special breakout cables to go with it:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-M...-Forward-Breakout-Internal-Cable/371681252206

Oh cool! Maybe that is the route to go. Although Chris recommended using a Dell Precision T7500, doesn't that have a built-in SAS controller? I've worked on them but it's been awhile.

I was looking at this listing here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/172693258078

Almost seems better to just pay for this. I'm still doing research on it though.

 

[Chris Moore]

Although Chris recommended using a Dell Precision T7500, doesn't that have a built-in SAS controller?

Yes, however the built-in controller is an older model that doesn't support drives larger than 2TB and it isn't very fast. I would install a card, even in the T7500.

 

[Chris Moore]

Although Chris recommended using a Dell Precision T7500

Also important to know.
There is a structural divider between the top two 5.25 bays and the bottom two 5.25 bays, so you can't put in an adapter that takes 3 bays, for example.
Ask me how I know.

 

[SangieWolf]

Also important to know.
There is a structural divider between the top two 5.25 bays and the bottom two 5.25 bays, so you can't put in an adapter that takes 3 bays, for example.
Ask me how I know.

Can you aggressively put it in? lol

My friend needs a functioning Windows 10 machine so I think I'm going to use my AMD for that and get the T7500 AND APPARENTLY a new SAS controller lol. damnit..

 

[pro lamer]

Can you aggressively put it in? lol

Tin scissors? ;)

 

[Chris Moore]

I just went with an adapter that fits.
There are several types that let you put 3 x 3.5 drives in 2 x 5.25 bays.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

 

[Chris Moore]

Also, there are 4 internal 3.5 bays in there.

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[Chris Moore]

Tin scissors? ;)

It is all galvanized steel.


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[SangieWolf]

I just went with an adapter that fits.
There are several types that let you put 3 x 3.5 drives in 2 x 5.25 bays.

Hmm... three might be enough if there are 6 bays inside.

Also, there are 4 internal 3.5 bays in there.

I thought 6? Regardless, I need space for 8 3.5 drives and one 2.5 SSD

 

[Chris Moore]

I thought 6?

Alright, here is a photo... The blue drive trays have integrated rubber anti vibration grommets and pins that fit in the screw holes so you can mount 4 x 3.5 drives in the space under he power supply and behind the 5.25 bays with no tools... If you notice the power supply, it is 80 Plus Platinum. Some are only Silver...
These systems have been around for ages but they are built like a Rolls Royce, so they will probably last another decade.

If you use hot-swap bays in the front:

It makes a nice server...