SCALE Update 8/6/2020

[mjflower]

Yep, docker-compose works without issue, I used it to setup all my containers in my VM. You just won't see anything Docker related in the UI.

Do you mean 'ever', that where won't be any docker related stuff in the UI or just while it is still being developed?

 

[Ericloewe]

Still being developed.

 

[mjflower]

That's what I thought , thanks :)

 

[stele77]

Hi, i do have some questions regarding the upcoming October release "Angelfish":
-Will this include Docker container management from the web ui?
-Will i be able to set up my planed usecases with this release (See below)?

USECASE - BARE METAL:
-[_]ZFS - Storage
-[_]ZFS - Backup
-[_]SSH-Server
-[_]SMB Shares
-[_]Subsonic (Manual install from DEB file)
-[_]Youtube-DL (From PPA if possible)
-[_]Rsync for Backup from STORAGE Pool to BACKUP Pool
-[_]FFMPEG (From PPA if possible)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

USECASE - VM:
-[_]OpenSense / PFSense with 2 dedicated NICs from Intel 4 port NIC
-[_]HomeAssistant/Hass.io
-[_]Syncthing
-[_]Nextcloud

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

USECASE - DOCKER:
-[_]Plex
-[_]Airsonic
-[_]Portainer
-[_]Deemix
-[_]Youtube-DL
-[_]Tautulli
-[_]NGINX Proxy Manager / Alternatives
-[_]Unifi Controller


As i am still learning, please bear with me if i miss something obvious! Any help is greatly appreciated!

EDIT: For a bit of context: I am running this exact setup now on my Ubuntu 20.4.1 LTS (Desktop) Server. I would want to import the VMs and Docker if possible, if not possible this would not be a deal breaker. But being able to set up all VMs from the Web UI, and Docker from Web UI or CLI is essential to me.
Hardware:
-Asus B450 Rog Strix F Gaming
-Ryzen 1700
-AMD Radeon RX470 Sapphire Nitro+
-19" 4U Inter-Tech Case
-4X8GB DDR4
-1000GB WD Blue NVME System Disk
-250GB Samsung Evo NVME SLOG
-LSI HBA IT Mode
-Pool 1 - Storage - 4X8TB Ironwolf CMR - On LSI HBA - RAID5 (I know ;) )
-Pool 2 - Backup - 4X8TB Ironwolf CMR - On LSI HBA - RAID5 (I know ;) )
-Pool 3 - Misc - 2X4TB WD Red CMR - On Chipset HBA - RAID1 (I know ;) )
-NIC1 - Onboad Intel
-NIC2 - Intel AIC
-NIC3 - Intel AIC
-NIC4 - Intel AIC
-NIC5 - Intel AIC

 

[ornias]

Hi, i do have some questions regarding the upcoming October release "Angelfish":
-Will this include Docker container management from the web ui?

- Docker is installed and setup by default
- As of today there is no Docker management GUI yet and there also isn't a PR for it open. So I don't expect it being in the initial release yet.,

-Will i be able to set up my planed usecases with this release (See below)?

USECASE - BARE METAL:
-[X]ZFS - Storage
-[X]ZFS - Backup
-[X]SSH-Server
-[X]SMB Shares
-[KINDA]Subsonic (Manual install from DEB file) -> VM via GUI, Docker via CLI (see above)
-[KINDA]Youtube-DL (From PPA if possible) -> VM via GUI, Docker via CLI (see above)
-[X]Rsync for Backup from STORAGE Pool to BACKUP Pool -> I think this should be relatively easy to setup
-[KINDA]FFMPEG (From PPA if possible) -> VM via GUI, Docker via CLI

Note:
Above "KINDA" solutions would be the "optimal" way of installing. Using stock debian might also be somewhat possible or plausible, but not adviceable

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

USECASE - VM:
-[X]OpenSense / PFSense with 2 dedicated NICs from Intel 4 port NIC -> setting up VM's via GUI and pcix passthrough should be possible. But PCI-E passthrough is always tricky
-[X]HomeAssistant/Hass.io -> Via Docker CLI (see above) (wouldn't advice a VM for this)
-[X]Syncthing -> Via Docker CLI (see above) (wouldn't advice a VM for this)
-[X]Nextcloud -> Via VM or Docker CLI (see above), although updating nextcloud on docker is not the smoothest process out there, their docker design is plain bad IMHO, but that has nothing to do with TrueNAS.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

USECASE - DOCKER:
-[X]Plex -> Via Docker CLI (see above), hardware acceleration is also possible
-[X]Airsonic-> Via Docker CLI (see above)
-[X]Portainer-> Via Docker CLI (see above), portainer might interfere with future management GUI although I don't think it will be that bad, use on your own risk
-[X]Deemix -> Via Docker CLI (see above)
-[X]Youtube-DL- > Via Docker CLI (see above)
-[X]Tautulli -> Via Docker CLI (see above)
-[X]NGINX Proxy Manager / Alternatives -> Via Docker CLI (see above), would advice you to look at traefik though, really awesome stuff!
-[X]Unifi Controller -> Via Docker CLI (see above)


Note:
Above "Via Docker CLI" solutions, are expecting you already have a docker image for said program, I did not check if said programs have docker images available although I know some/most of them do


Hope this clears things up without IX having to spend the time to work through your list ;)

 

[stele77]

- Docker is installed and setup by default
- As of today there is no Docker management GUI yet and there also isn't a PR for it open. So I don't expect it being in the initial release yet.,



USECASE - BARE METAL:
-[X]ZFS - Storage
-[X]ZFS - Backup
-[X]SSH-Server
-[X]SMB Shares
-[KINDA]Subsonic (Manual install from DEB file) -> VM via GUI, Docker via CLI (see above)
-[KINDA]Youtube-DL (From PPA if possible) -> VM via GUI, Docker via CLI (see above)
-[X]Rsync for Backup from STORAGE Pool to BACKUP Pool -> I think this should be relatively easy to setup
-[KINDA]FFMPEG (From PPA if possible) -> VM via GUI, Docker via CLI

Note:
Above "KINDA" solutions would be the "optimal" way of installing. Using stock debian might also be somewhat possible or plausible, but not adviceable

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

USECASE - VM:
-[X]OpenSense / PFSense with 2 dedicated NICs from Intel 4 port NIC -> setting up VM's via GUI and pcix passthrough should be possible. But PCI-E passthrough is always tricky
-[X]HomeAssistant/Hass.io -> Via Docker CLI (see above) (wouldn't advice a VM for this)
-[X]Syncthing -> Via Docker CLI (see above) (wouldn't advice a VM for this)
-[X]Nextcloud -> Via VM or Docker CLI (see above), although updating nextcloud on docker is not the smoothest process out there, their docker design is plain bad IMHO, but that has nothing to do with TrueNAS.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

USECASE - DOCKER:
-[X]Plex -> Via Docker CLI (see above), hardware acceleration is also possible
-[X]Airsonic-> Via Docker CLI (see above)
-[X]Portainer-> Via Docker CLI (see above), portainer might interfere with future management GUI although I don't think it will be that bad, use on your own risk
-[X]Deemix -> Via Docker CLI (see above)
-[X]Youtube-DL- > Via Docker CLI (see above)
-[X]Tautulli -> Via Docker CLI (see above)
-[X]NGINX Proxy Manager / Alternatives -> Via Docker CLI (see above), would advice you to look at traefik though, really awesome stuff!
-[X]Unifi Controller -> Via Docker CLI (see above)


Note:
Above "Via Docker CLI" solutions, are expecting you already have a docker image for said program, I did not check if said programs have docker images available although I know some/most of them do


Hope this clears things up without IX having to spend the time to work through your list ;)

WOW. Sorry for the late reply; Thank you so much for your answer! You were not just very helpful to judge where i can go with my setup at this point, but also very helpful hints like with traefik!
As i am still a noob in many areas, i think i will wait until the Beta and skip Angelfish. While i could again manage Docker soley from CLI, after Portainer i have no more desire to do so.. ;) And yeah, installing packages on bare metal TrueNAS SCALE is truely (pun intended) not clever, i now understand.
In the long run it is easier and more stable anyway to put everything in containers and VMs exclusively anyway, and i wanted to get rid of the bad habit of installing bare metal on my server for a long time now.

Some notes:
-Why do you not recommend to use Home Assistant as VM? I dont use Home Assistant release but the Hass.io VM, which is itself a OS with severel Containers. HW Passthrough for my Zigbee Coordinators works great with virt-manager at least.
-Syncthing ofc is not needed to be used VM, but i use it to sync my personal files where i like the idea of isolation and LUKS encryption of the VM guest OS. Is there any other reason besides being more effient on Docker/VM not really needed? The same applies to Nextcloud (I use the Nextcloud Pi VM btw).
-Treafik: I just checked it out, sound indeed amazing!

Thanks again for your extremly helpful input, i could not have wished for any better help!

And thanks to iXSystems; Me and many other have waited for such a combination. It will be a total hit on the homelab/personal but surely also the enterprise side of the market!

 

[ornias]

WOW. Sorry for the late reply; Thank you so much for your answer! You were not just very helpful to judge where i can go with my setup at this point, but also very helpful hints like with traefik!

Happy to be of help!

As i am still a noob in many areas, i think i will wait until the Beta and skip Angelfish.

Alpha is really alpha: It might be totally broken byond repair and you are expected to be able to dig into any issues yourself without too-much holding-hands and preferably even able to bugtrace light issues.

So if you are new to the game: Yes, wait till beta :)

In the long run it is easier and more stable anyway to put everything in containers and VMs exclusively anyway, and i wanted to get rid of the bad habit of installing bare metal on my server for a long time now.

Good habbits take time to implement, I know... I've currently spend weeks making a prototype config to migrate to K8S from Swarm :')

-Why do you not recommend to use Home Assistant as VM? I dont use Home Assistant release but the Hass.io VM, which is itself a OS with severel Containers. HW Passthrough for my Zigbee Coordinators works great with virt-manager at least.

Overhead and maintenance mostly, I don't prefer to put docker in a VM with the host already serving docker containers and even including k8s.
Just a slight note: Setting up homeassistant core using the helm chart was super easy and definaltely faster than any VM setup
But thats all mostly preference ofc.

-Syncthing ofc is not needed to be used VM, but i use it to sync my personal files where i like the idea of isolation and LUKS encryption of the VM guest OS. Is there any other reason besides being more effient on Docker/VM not really needed?

Security due to added maintenance. But ofc. if you want to thinker it isn't technically impossible.

The same applies to Nextcloud (I use the Nextcloud Pi VM btw).

If I where you i would worry more about the general quality, or rather lack thereoff, of Nextcloud development/codewise than the (in)security of putting it in a docker container. (They still 1,5(!) year after reporting haven't fixed percona/galera support and same with SAML SLO, last of which is even sold within their enterprise support and documentation program and got broken by their own changes in core-auth)

Nextcloud also has a absolute SHIT TON of dependencies which change almost every version.
Disclaimer: I do actually use it, but it's my least favorite of my current 30 containers and also was the least favorite to setup within my 50+ containers K8S protoype. A solid HA SQL setup was easier.

-Treafik: I just checked it out, sound indeed amazing!

Only thing I don't like with traefik-for-k8s (CRD version) is the lack of documentation/handholding. If you want I throw me a PM when your on Beta and I'll send you a ready to rock setup for K8S.

 

[stele77]

Happy to be of help!

Thanks again! :)

Alpha is really alpha: It might be totally broken byond repair and you are expected to be able to dig into any issues yourself without too-much holding-hands and preferably even able to bugtrace light issues.

So if you are new to the game: Yes, wait till beta :)

I will now certainly, though i am pretty excited.. But i only have 1 Home Server atm, and spending time of restoring my setup if stuff goes wrong is nothing i now have time for anyway. Better to be patient ;)

Good habbits take time to implement, I know... I've currently spend weeks making a prototype config to migrate to K8S from Swarm :')

As K8s seems to be the industry standard now, i am sure that work pays off and the experience you gain with this. Thats what i like about home labbing, i learned so much in the last maybe 1-2 years of moving from Windows to FOSS... Amazing.

Overhead and maintenance mostly, I don't prefer to put docker in a VM with the host already serving docker containers and even including k8s.
Just a slight note: Setting up homeassistant core using the helm chart was super easy and definaltely faster than any VM setup
But thats all mostly preference ofc.

That sounds encouraging! Will definetly try this when i have some free time to tinker!

Security due to added maintenance. But ofc. if you want to thinker it isn't technically impossible.

It is because of (percived) security, but likely also because i am still new to docker and homelabbing in general and used KVM exclusively. Like the guy who comes to the party when it already moved on (to K8s in this case) ;)
Learning about K8s and more about containers in general is on my todo list, and then i think i am more open about moving more stuff from VMs.
But with my current setup running stable and comfortably and without perf issues on my budget Ryzen 1700, and with not much free time, it will be some months anyway to take that step..

If I where you i would worry more about the general quality, or rather lack thereoff, of Nextcloud development/codewise than the (in)security of putting it in a docker container. (They still 1,5(!) year after reporting haven't fixed percona/galera support and same with SAML SLO, last of which is even sold within their enterprise support and documentation program and got broken by their own changes in core-auth)

Nextcloud also has a absolute **** TON of dependencies which change almost every version.
Disclaimer: I do actually use it, but it's my least favorite of my current 30 containers and also was the least favorite to setup within my 50+ containers K8S protoype. A solid HA SQL setup was easier.

Yeah, Nextcloud IMHO is sadly plagued by quality issues. Security, performance.. Dont leave a good impression, even to a observing noob like me from the bug reports i read and forum posts.
I moved my personal files into Syncthing for this matter, only use it now as CalDAV/CardDAV server. And even there i am looking to move to EteSync, which is end to end encrypted, while self hosting is also possible and FOSS ofc.

Only thing I don't like with traefik-for-k8s (CRD version) is the lack of documentation/handholding. If you want I throw me a PM when your on Beta and I'll send you a ready to rock setup for K8S.

Lack of documentation sound not good. I will try to set it up when i have some free days; Thanks for the offer, that setup of yours could come in handy then!

So long for my off-topic on this thread, thanks again and looking forward for SCALE! :)

 

[ornias]

I will now certainly, though i am pretty excited.. But i only have 1 Home Server atm, and spending time of restoring my setup if stuff goes wrong is nothing i now have time for anyway. Better to be patient ;)

There will be an upgrade path from TrueNAS Core to TrueNAS SCALE (initial prototype for which is already in production), so it might be worth getting to know TrueNAS Core 12 already... to get familiar with the core systems like ZFS, Shares and the GUI ^^

As K8s seems to be the industry standard now, i am sure that work pays off and the experience you gain with this. Thats what i like about home labbing, i learned so much in the last maybe 1-2 years of moving from Windows to FOSS... Amazing.

Preciesly, thats why i'm taking the time. I never would've if it was "just for moving to scale", but it helps me get more into the mindset of devops and how ZFS (which I also am active in the community for) is actually used.

That sounds encouraging! Will definetly try this when i have some free time to tinker!

Have fun,shout out of you need a hand :)

It is because of (percived) security, but likely also because i am still new to docker and homelabbing in general and used KVM exclusively. Like the guy who comes to the party when it already moved on (to K8s in this case) ;)

Yeah k8s has a learning curve, thats why it hasn't been widely adopted in the amateur-homelab scene (the homelab scene with people that aren't working with containerisation on a professional basis). A shame really.

Learning about K8s and more about containers in general is on my todo list, and then i think i am more open about moving more stuff from VMs.
But with my current setup running stable and comfortably and without perf issues on my budget Ryzen 1700, and with not much free time, it will be some months anyway to take that step..

My test VM with SCALE is a 8 threads from a 1700, don't underestimate the good 'ol 1700!

Yeah, Nextcloud IMHO is sadly plagued by quality issues. Security, performance.. Dont leave a good impression, even to a observing noob like me from the bug reports i read and forum posts.

Well, the general impression isn't nice. What I find more worrysome is the fact they actually sell "support" for features that are totally broken by design. See for example: https://github.com/nextcloud/user_saml/issues/455

Combined with continuesly adding all sorts of features (how many office suits are integrated by now? 4?), it creates some questions:
- Where do their priorities lay, which users? Enterprise? Free Users? Indirect users (via enterprise)? Contracts with integration partners?
- Who is paying for this? Is it really the support contracts that bring in the money, or are they actually getting more money out of all these integrations? (why else integrate all those office suits...)

The reason I rant on about this a bit is the contrast with IX systems:
IX is clear where they get their money from, is clear where their priorities lay, is clear about what free users can expect and doesn't hide manuals behind a paywall.

I'm not against the "Free/FOSS with prenmium support and/or hardware"-model, but there is a good way and a bad way about doing this. Big compliment for the way IX is doing things, even though i don't always agree with every choice they make either :)

I moved my personal files into Syncthing for this matter, only use it now as CalDAV/CardDAV server.

I currently use their sync, I think it's pretty decent. But big shoutout to syncthing too, I love that tool :)
Really not sure which I would rather use.

And even there i am looking to move to EteSync, which is end to end encrypted, while self hosting is also possible and FOSS ofc.

I have end-to-"50kg-inhouse-server"-to-end encryption, I find that sufficient personally. But that's also because I'm quite literally sitting on (below) the actual server(s). :')
Anyway, did any tests with EteSync yet?

Lack of documentation sound not good. I will try to set it up when i have some free days; Thanks for the offer, that setup of yours could come in handy then!

Well there is great documentation, but a lot if not k8s specific... which you need to translate to the (quite different) syntax used with K8S.
Docker setup is pretty easy, i've a swarm example too if you need one :)

So long for my off-topic on this thread, thanks again and looking forward for SCALE! :)

Well, offtopic isn't a problem as long as it adds something to the thread. Educating eachother off-topic really never some something a moderator would bother with here, don't worry :)
(my nextcloud comments however are a bit of a bad-boy comment though O:) )