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NVDIMMS and TrueNAS 12

Western Digital Drives - The Preferred Drives of FreeNAS and TrueNAS CORE
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
Messages
7
So I saw on the feature list that NVDIMMs willl be support in TrueNas 12 and I was wondering if anyone had played around with them yet. I have a Gigabyte MH71-HB0 and it supports 4 Optane DC Memory DIMMs and I am really interested in experimenting with these, especially now that the price for them has become easily obtainable. In fact the price for a 256GB module ($300) is almost competitive with SSD drives. I was wondering if it would we possible to use these as our ZIL device. Instead of buying a an expensive PCIe Optane Drive, we just slap a couple of these 256GB modules in there in AP mode and boom 512GB ZIL device. Would this work in TrueNAS? On a side note, is TrueNAS coded to take advantage of the speed of the modules? I have read a lot about them lately and with the falling prices I would really like to pick a couple up. Thank you for the help guys.
 

sretalla

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Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
4,971
I was wondering if it would we possible to use these as our ZIL device. Instead of buying a an expensive PCIe Optane Drive, we just slap a couple of these 256GB modules in there in AP mode and boom 512GB ZIL device
You would want to be fairly sure you're battery backed for those as the amount of data written in just a few seconds could be a lot to lose.

Would this work in TrueNAS?
Maybe...
 

HoneyBadger

Mushroom! Mushroom!
Joined
Feb 6, 2014
Messages
3,353
You would want to be fairly sure you're battery backed for those
It's Optane DC - 3D XPoint on a DIMM interface. No battery backing is needed there.

In fact the price for a 256GB module ($300) is almost competitive with SSD drives. I was wondering if it would we possible to use these as our ZIL device. Instead of buying a an expensive PCIe Optane Drive, we just slap a couple of these 256GB modules in there in AP mode and boom 512GB ZIL device.
Definitely cheaper than the PCIe devices but I believe it requires special drivers for the Optane DC modules; I know Intel was working towards implementing support for persistent memory in FreeBSD but I don't know if it was completed yet.
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
Messages
7
Well I noticed on the feature list that it specifically stated support for nvdimms, now where or not the includes the opt and modules is anyone’s guess. Could someone on the dev team weigh in here?
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
Messages
7
And yes just to reiterate in ap mode the Optane modules are persistent just like their ssd cousins, however in memory mode they are not persistent, hence the rebranding.
 

danb35

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Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
12,266
we just slap a couple of these 256GB modules in there in AP mode and boom 512GB ZIL device.
...roughly 480GB of which would be wasted. SLOG isn't a write cache and doesn't work like one.
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
Messages
7
...roughly 480GB of which would be wasted. SLOG isn't a write cache and doesn't work like one.
This statement confuses me. Aren’t optane drives pretty much the default standard for a zil/slog device? If we had access to the same technology but on the memory bus, wouldn’t that make it faster? I know I currently have a 905 optane as my zil and while I don’t have that large of a pool at the moment I plan to have upwards of 100 tb eventually.
 

danb35

Wizened Sage
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
12,266
This statement confuses me.
...because you don't understand how a SLOG device is used. At any given time, it will have no more than two transaction groups' (each of which would be five seconds) worth of data. See:
 

Ericloewe

Not-very-passive-but-aggressive
Moderator
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Feb 15, 2014
Messages
17,234
I think the question is more along the lines of "what's the smallest suitable SSD?" - say the P3700, for instance, that thing starts at 240 GB if I'm not mistaken. If you're really looking for speed, way oversized SSD capacities are probably inevitable.
 

HoneyBadger

Mushroom! Mushroom!
Joined
Feb 6, 2014
Messages
3,353
...because you don't understand how a SLOG device is used. At any given time, it will have no more than two transaction groups' (each of which would be five seconds) worth of data. See:
https://www.ixsystems.com/community/threads/proper-sizing-of-slog-and-transaction-group.35470/
https://www.ixsystems.com/blog/why-zil-size-matters-or-doesnt/
Unfortunately both of those links are 5 years old and refer to the "legacy write throttle" - the short version now is that with the default tunables, you'll never use more than 4G of a given SLOG device. Like most things in ZFS this can be adjusted, but you'll consume an equal amount of RAM to whatever you allow your "maximum SLOG usage" to be, which robs you of some ARC space. Obviously it's up to you to find the balance depending on your read/write usage, the "burstiness" of the workload, and how much RAM is installed.

I think the question is more along the lines of "what's the smallest suitable SSD?" - say the P3700, for instance, that thing starts at 240 GB if I'm not mistaken. If you're really looking for speed, way oversized SSD capacities are probably inevitable.
400G for that one specifically, but it's kind of moot as pointed out - to get the kind of speed and responsiveness you want out of an SLOG, you either end up with a grossly oversized SSD or a specialised (and usually extremely expensive) device. Oversized devices do help with wear-levelling to increase endurance though.
 

ehsab

Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2020
Messages
45
Wouldnt two mirrored 128GB DCPMM modules in DA mode partitioned for SLOG and L2ARC be a good solution to nvme disks?
 

Ericloewe

Not-very-passive-but-aggressive
Moderator
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Feb 15, 2014
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Conceivably, but it's still cutting edge stuff. Any volunteers? Be sure to carry first aid kits.
 

HoneyBadger

Mushroom! Mushroom!
Joined
Feb 6, 2014
Messages
3,353
ñvdimm only enterprise.version
Only officially. NVDIMM implementation is challenging, but on proper hardware they simply appear as additional nvd devices. There is not software lockout that prevents them from working on TrueNAS CORE.
 

Rand

Neophyte Sage
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
891
RMS is no NVDimm tough.

I upgraded (accidentally) to 12U1 yesterday and it seems my NVDimm (-N, not -P as per OP) continues to work fine albeit with another device identifier, but pool was migrated fine.
Not sure I still need the Loader variable I had in place any more, but have not tested further
 

ehsab

Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2020
Messages
45
RMS is no NVDimm tough.

I upgraded (accidentally) to 12U1 yesterday and it seems my NVDimm (-N, not -P as per OP) continues to work fine albeit with another device identifier, but pool was migrated fine.
Not sure I still need the Loader variable I had in place any more, but have not tested further
What NVDimm are you using?
 

TrumanHW

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2018
Messages
111
How would an NVDIMM compare to an Optane Persistent RAM performance be..?

In fact, what's the performance (comparatively) between Optane Persistent RAM vs say a P4800X or 905p ..?
 

TrumanHW

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2018
Messages
111
Optane Persistent Memory 100 vs 200 performance & compatibility

Compatibility requires very expensive CPU
(I'd hoped they'd work with E5-2600)

Intel-Optane-PMem-100-vs-200.png


Optane Persistent DIMM 100 Optane Persistent DIMM 200
Maximum DIMM Speed / Performance 2,666 MT/s 3,200 MT/s
SP CPU Generation REQUIRED Xeon Scalable Processors (2nd Gen.) Xeon Scalable Processors (3rd Gen.)
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