How do I install 'screen'?

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static

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Hi everyone!

I updated to TrueNAS-SCALE-22.02.0 Release from RC2 and so far so good for everything including all my truecharts apps. Apt is disabled by default, however, and screen is no longer installed. I use it for lengthy copies as well as to connect to /dev/ttyUSB0 to configure my Cisco switch. Is there a way I can install it from the web GUI? If not what might my options be? Any help is appreciated. Cheers
 

Kris Moore

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We include "tmux" by default, which will do the same thing as the screen command.
 

jgreco

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We include "tmux" by default, which will do the same thing as the screen command.

That's like saying emacs will do the same thing as vi, or tcsh will do the same thing as bash -- and I note that you guys switched root to zsh, a catastrophically bad choice over either of them, for no obvious reason other than to annoy people who find zsh jarring.
 

Kris Moore

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To each their own. I'm just stating the fact that "screen" is not pre-installed, but "tmux" is (functionally close to identical). If folks want to add screen to the base, please submit a ticket so we can track it.
 

jgreco

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If it's "functionally close to identical", this raises the question of why both are installed on Core.

Quite frankly, I might be amused to see BSD "window" revived. I don't remember why that was removed from FreeBSD. tmux is admittedly more featureful, but some of us still miss the good ol' VAX and VT100 days.
 

static

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heh Yeah I'm still a vi guy personally... hey when it comes to screen, if tmux works, that's cool - I can learn. I just need to meet the requirements one way or another.

The broad question is I guess about having a package manager overall. Not having a package manager will break apps like handbrake where there are steps to add other codecs etc? And to @jgreco 's point we lose the chance to customize to our liking, which is part of the joy of open source.

That said, I do work in production environments and understand controlled repos when it comes to what packages iX provides / supports. It would just be nice if there were at least some that could be added "as is" / unsupported if necessary. Something less involved that truecharts for utility apps and so on.
 

jgreco

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I don't think they're opposed to adding it. I suspect "screen" may represent the preference of a developer who has since left iXsystems. It was amusing to see that the non-GNU tmux is on the GNU Linux system, while the GNU screen is on the BSD licensed FreeBSD system.
 

static

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I don't think they're opposed to adding it. I suspect "screen" may represent the preference of a developer who has since left iXsystems. It was amusing to see that the non-GNU tmux is on the GNU Linux system, while the GNU screen is on the BSD licensed FreeBSD system.
All good, as I say I don't mind learning something if I can do what I need to do. I found this tmuxcheatsheet.com and tmux is working well. The only other thing I can think of at the moment I'd needed apt for was adding codecs to handbrake. Overall I'm knocking out everything else I need that I can think of.
 

jgreco

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What's the difficulty with adding codecs to handbrake?
 

static

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I can create a different thread so it isn't off-topic here, but you use apt to pull down the deb and script. I hadn't thought about looking into if dpkg is available to be able to copy the files over myself and install them.

Regarding tmux, it is working for my copies, but it doesn't seem to support connecting to /dev/ttyUSB0 so I'm still looking for what I can do to connect to that. Anyone know of something included I'm not thinking of? I looked for minicom, picocom...
 

jgreco

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Yeah, so, apt, dpkg, pkg, whatever, are available in whatever VM, jail, or container you are using to do the work.

It sounds to me like you've installed Handbrake on TrueNAS itself, which is not something you are supposed to do, not expected to work, and not going to get a ton of help or even sympathy around here, because users are not supposed to be mucking with the innards of the appliance or making changes to it. Don't do that. It's not expected to work. It shouldn't work. iXsystems deliberately broke "apt" in the base appliance so as to discourage people from trying.
 

static

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Handbrake was from Truecharts. Everything worked when I had apt to add in what was needed codec-wise, and I'd used it to also install screen. I don't expect sympathy for the truecharts app missing codecs, but apt getting disabled is a surprise. I'm trying to get on-board, as annoying as it is. I'm just looking to connect to my switch at /dev/ttyUSB0 at this point and if I have to, I'll use a VM and create a container that has what I need for handbrake.

Anyone know of something included I'm not thinking of? I looked for minicom, picocom...
 

truecharts

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Handbrake was from Truecharts. Everything worked when I had apt to add in what was needed codec-wise, and I'd used it to also install screen. I don't expect sympathy for the truecharts app missing codecs, but apt getting disabled is a surprise. I'm trying to get on-board, as annoying as it is. I'm just looking to connect to my switch at /dev/ttyUSB0 at this point and if I have to, I'll use a VM and create a container that has what I need for handbrake.

Anyone know of something included I'm not thinking of? I looked for minicom, picocom...

If you need support for things related to TrueCharts, its best to file a support ticket with us directly.
However our Apps are container based and as such the content (such as codecs) is not related to the host system either.
 

static

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All good. Please understand: I realize the libdvdcss decryption stuff is a grey area legally, people online usually don't want to answer, and I've been trying to avoid that topic here largely for that reason. I work with law enforcement and need to rip adult movies to send to a GPU cluster for AI analysis for face-recognition etc to ensure there are no unwilling or underage "actors" in it, but that isn't really the point here. Worst case I can run it in a VM; it's just a shame with the truecharts app ready to rock (and working in RC2).

The issue is that in running through the evaluation / R&D phase, I was able to tell my senior management that based on the RC, TrueNAS 22.02 will meet all our requirements. Everything worked in RC2, so it's not like I am here asking for a miracle or something new here. I think it's very strange that part of the way through a release cycle (going from RC to Release) something as major as disabling Apt happened. All that should be changed at that stage should be bug fixes, or else we run into a scenario where the release candidate works better than the release, and we only realize we lose functionality when we upgrade from RC2 to Release... so here we are.

I understand what @jgreco is saying in terms of iX's desire to control the packages, but shouldn't that have been the case from the design stage forward, so that all tests could be considered valid? Unless this is standard operating practice for iX and Apt is always allowed until Release and I just didn't know it? I can't confidently recommend it now if we can't trust the release cycle; and seeing as I use it at home, that would have been my preference due to my comfort level with it. I'm not a huge Red Hat or Ceph guy but we will likely have to go that route because at least I'll be able to add something like screen or minicom to connect to the switches. This became an important requirement when we starting working from home so much more due to covid restrictions.

Is there at least something included I can use to connect to /dev/ttyUSB0 if I won't have access to apt to add it myself?
 
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Patrick M. Hausen

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Check if cu is there. I don't have access to my SCALE system just right now.
 

jgreco

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Apt is always allowed until Release and I just didn't know it?

No, apt is never allowed unless someone from iXsystems TELLS you to use it.

People have been misunderstanding what FreeNAS and then TrueNAS is for as long as it's been around. It's an appliance. It's firmware. It is not meant for you to tinker with. You don't add software, you don't add drivers, you don't update the kernel, you don't install your own stuff. Doing so may cause it to break. Doing so will cause problems during updates.

This wasn't AS bad a problem with FreeBSD as it's been with Linux as an underlying OS. Many users were unfamiliar with FreeBSD and didn't know what the package manager was, how it worked, or how to try to install stuff. However, every Tom, Dick, and Harry that comes along seems to have Linux experience, and for some reason they ALSO tend not to be able to reconcile with the idea that Scale isn't a "Linux distro" but rather an embedded Linux appliance.

So there's basically a knife that cuts in all directions here.

1) If you're a community member like me here on the forums, and you're providing support, and some Linux fanboi who knew "apt" directly or watched some video or read some blog post by some idiot somewhere who broke the paradigm, then they show up here and they're having this bizarre problem, and it turns out to be the result of their having tinkered with the base system. This is HIGHLY unpleasant for the community members, and some of them become cynical and decide to stop trying. That's bad for everyone.

2) If you're a Linux power user who just desperately wants to do your ${thing} with your ${crummy-hardware-that-works-on-some-Linux} driver add, or add software, or whatever, you're probably already used to being able to do as you please, and you don't pay any attention to all the warning signs that you're not supposed to do that. This ultimately leads you to problems down the road, such as massive breakage during upgrades. We have a decade's worth of experience with people managing to do that on FreeBSD, and it seems to be an order of magnitude worse on Linux. Now, just to be clear, if you go into the situation informed and with open eyes, knowing that you are doing such a thing, then fine, go ahead. But it shouldn't be discussed here on the forums as a complaint of any sort.

3) If you're iXsystems and you're trying to release an appliance software that pays your paycheck, and people are trashmouthing Scale because they've done stuff they're not supposed to, and then blaming it on iX, that affects the future of the product in a negative way. I would note that you specifically seem to be doing something along these lines:

I was able to tell my senior management that based on the RC, TrueNAS 22.02 will meet all our requirements. Everything worked in RC2, so it's not like I am here asking for a miracle or something new here. I think it's very strange that part of the way through a release cycle (going from RC to Release) something as major as disabling Apt happened. All that should be changed at that stage should be bug fixes, or else we run into a scenario where the release candidate works better than the release, and we only realize we lose functionality when we upgrade from RC2 to Release... so here we are.

You've made the assumption that "apt" is something you're supposed to have, but it isn't. You should never have noticed the execute bits going away since you had no business laying hands on it. Literally a three bit change that you should not have noticed.

4) It is, of course, free software. You are ultimately free to do whatever you like with it, including bending, folding, spindling, and mutilating it. However, if you choose to do these things, you are then using it in a manner other than what was intended, and you should really acknowledge that, own that, and deal with that on that basis. Anyone willing to wear their big boy pants and tinker is able to do so. The source code is available, it is changeable, the installed system is hackable, but in all cases, it's best not to blame the company providing their product for free to you for not making it work the way you would like. They're trying to make a killer product with a small team of developers. That's a Herculean task. I don't agree with a bunch of stuff they've done over the years, but I at least accept it for what it is, and appreciate it regardless.

Anyways this has turned out to be an unexpectedly sharp knife. The whole "apt" thing has been SUCH a problem that iXsystems actually took steps to actively break apt.

in terms of iX's desire to control the packages,

And, just to reiterate, this isn't the case at all. There's only one package. It's called "TrueNAS SCALE".
 

truecharts

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All good. Please understand: I realize the libdvdcss decryption stuff is a grey area legally, people online usually don't want to answer, and I've been trying to avoid that topic here largely for that reason.

If you open a support ticket, we generally don't have an issue about supporting gray-area tools.
 

static

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Check if cu is there. I don't have access to my SCALE system just right now.
Awesome, thank you! I'll have a look.

you don't pay any attention to all the warning signs that you're not supposed to do that
What warning signs? There are no warnings or errors when launching the shell:

Code:
Linux sentinel.local 5.10.93+truenas #1 SMP Fri Feb 18 14:37:37 UTC 2022 x86_64


        TrueNAS (c) 2009-2022, iXsystems, Inc.
        All rights reserved.
        TrueNAS code is released under the modified BSD license with some
        files copyrighted by (c) iXsystems, Inc.


        For more information, documentation, help or support, go here:
        http://truenas.com
Welcome to TrueNAS
Last login: Wed Feb  9 11:35:25 EST 2022 on pts/6
root@sentinel:~#


And screen had installed without issue, without warning, and without error. SCALE is a debian-based distribution, not a package. That said, again, I understand what you're getting at. Considering I've been trying to get on-board this entire thread, I don't think the lecture is necessary, nor the implication that I'm just "a fanboi trying to break things" (or the "rules" which aren't posted anywhere obvious). The point is none of that was obvious, and even though adding one small utility isn't going to break updates or upgrades, as proven by the update to Release without issue, I'm willing to play along. Now that I understand I shouldn't, for no other reason than you've told me so, I need to find a way to do what I need to do.

I'll try "cu".
 

jgreco

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SCALE is a debian-based distribution, not a package.

That is factually incorrect. It is distributed as a package, all-in-one solution. It is not a "pkg manager package" or an "apt package manager" package. It is a capital-P Package. Take it all or leave it all Package. It is not a "debian-based distribution", which implies that it is a general purpose OS. It is an appliance OS, with FreeBSD and Debian roots.

I don't think the lecture is necessary,
Now that I understand I shouldn't, for no other reason than you've told me so,

You just said the lecture was unnecessary and then you explained why the lecture was necessary. Please stop, this is melting my brain. :smile:

I cannot force iXsystems to make this more-clear, but they are trying. See for example

https://www.truenas.com/community/t...-0-angelfish-release.99233/page-2#post-684779

But we've got a decade's worth of inertia to overcome here, where the community simply "knew" that it was an appliance, and new users who thought otherwise were corrected. The pace of corrections under Scale is proving untenable, though, and as someone who does this for free in y spare time, I don't appreciate iXsystems for making it necessary, or the attitudes of users who are certain that they are Linux Expert Hackers Who Know That It's Just A Debian Box And Can Do As They Please. Please take a moment to reverse our roles here and see it from the other side.

And screen had installed without issue, without warning, and without error.

RIght, and that's a real problem. But where to draw that line has got to be a challenging issue for the dev team. The previous line was probably based on the FreeBSD experience, which is not working out well in the Linux crowd. So they're fixing it to make it better.

The final word in this thread is that you may either:

1) File a Jira ticket asking for screen in future releases

2) Figure out how to install screen without a package manager

Both are relatively easy. The first one is the blessed solution. The second is pragmatic, and you own it if you break it.
 
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