TrueNAS-SCALE-21.08-BETA.2 - Installed Apps Running but not showing in GUI after app update

[truecharts]

Well. The issue is still occuring. And, without the ability to see logs and such, as it seems truecharts is either incapable of (which isn't good) or unwilling to (which is even worse) allow the general public any form of troubleshooting outside of direct contact with the dev (not even devs as last I understood it) to do so.

It is not, this issue is about a single app disappearing on update, which happened due to a very specific conflict between iX systems code and ours back in the beta days. Nor have we seen it happening since either, on the hunderd+ Apps our team runs as canary.

It's also important to note we only build a part of the GUI and install process for the Apps.
The GUI itself, Kubernetes backend, log viewer etc. Is all part of iX's design and not ours.

Well. The issue is still occuring. And, without the ability to see logs and such, as it seems truecharts is either incapable of (which isn't good) or unwilling to (which is even worse) allow the general public any form of troubleshooting outside of direct contact with the dev (not even devs as last I understood it) to do so.

We have 2 maintainers (aka head devs), about a hand full big-time contributors (devs) and about a few dozen small contributors (which you might, or might not, consider devs). Troubleshooting is mostly assisted by our dedicated support staff, some of which are also contributors and usually not our maintainers.

As for an appeal, I was banned

To be frank, we're mostly going to ignore this. As it's off-topic, not related to this forum at all and not going to solve any of your issues either.

We are all essentially giving things away for free and providing active support for it as well.
(with support response times some companies could dream of)

You don't have to use our work or our documentation or even can become a developer yourself and actively compete with us by building a catalog.
But you're not entitled to any kind of anything. Be it: Docs, Support, Patches or code.


On-Off-Topic:

Now, with that said:
Specifically updating between 22.02.RELEASE to 22.01.0.1 I encountered the same (presented as same) issue. It seemed as if the Kubernetes back end (or whatever you call it) was/is broken for some reason.

Most likely all of your Apps didn't show up, this is different from this thread, this thread is about a single App not showing on update of said App. This was a very specific bug that is not happening anymore.

The bug of all apps not showing on reboot and/or update, is a known issue on iX's side of things. As far as we've discussed they are actively working on it and some fixes for it are already merged into nightly builds. Some of them should also make it into next minor release of SCALE before bluefin.

SD/R kept leading to the same Kubernetes break. Eventually I just went through and stopped each app, I guess until I got to the broken one.

Not likely, as broken Apps don't break kubernetes. The issue as far as we're aware is to do with some timeouts and raceconditions within iX's kubernetes stack. Just because your trying fixed it this time, does not mean there is a causality between those two things ;-)

Again, it's reasons like this that you really shouldn't ban people from your discord, especially for childish/petty reasons... SOME of us are good at this shit... SOME of us can actually work around things when they're broken... SOME of us want to actually help others wneh their systems go to shit... Some of us actually understand how others feel especially in those situations. But I digress

It's continued comments like these, about our dedicated staffmembers that cause your ban to stay in place. Please just shut it.

But, I've no desire to keep it a secret like some people, so feel free to copy/paste or give the readers digest version for your members... Don't even need to credit me.

We have no "secret fix" for this, as this has nothing to do with the thread you just hijacked.
Nor is your writeup an actuall fix for the bug you are plagued with, nor is that bug related to us.
(and yes, we've gone over this ourselves and with iX devs as well to make sure)

We get reports about this bug about weekly and it gets posted here on the forum weekly or twice weekly as well.
There is nothing on our side we can do about this.

But:
It's not related to this thread from October(!) about single apps disappearing after clicking the update button. Which had something to do by us calling a feature in a way iX did not intend it to be called. Very specific, not relevant for your issue.

 

[jgreco]

As for an appeal, I was banned by a mod for questioning their silencing me for 24 hours. In what world could I possibly expect a fair appeal given that the benchmark for my ban was PMing a mod about the silence in the first place.

And as far as 'thin skinned', your single dev (unless you've gotten more) is so thin skinned he's picked fights here and gotten himself suspended from this forum more than once. He picks fights, pushes people around, generally isn't a good person... And instead of actually moderating, you bullies just ban anyone that disagrees with your dev. So, I have little desire to be welcomed back, as I have no doubt the disgusting nature of your heirarchy there won't suddenly remedy itself.

I don't know the exact nature of what's transpired here. It isn't clear which moderators you're referring to.

If you've got a problem with something that's happened on Discord, I'm sorry to hear it but I've got no visibility into it and I'm not aware of who might be moderating Discord. My understanding is that truecharts is their own thing and not really part of iXsystems. These forums cannot resolve those problems.

If this is something that's happened on the forums, please be aware that the moderation team here in the forums is made up of community members, and unless we have "iXsystems" in a blue badge under our avatars, we are unpaid and not employed by or working for iXsystems. Ornias / truecharts is not "our dev"; the moderation team has no developers to speak of. Mod team is well aware of Ornias and truecharts. I don't really know the exact nature of the relationship he has with iXsystems, but an iXsystems administrator has indeed banned him for periods in the past, so, I will note that iXsystems does not seem thrilled with the situation either.

One of the hazards in this business is that many tech people can be extremely talented but also be lacking in social skills. I am not in a good position to judge Ornias on talent as all the helm/charts stuff is not really in my line of work. I am guessing that there may be some talent there as truecharts seems to be the selected mechanism for these things, though.

A brief review of your posts suggests that you're not entirely blameless here. The forum rules suggest that this is a family-friendly forum, where people should post in a calm and relaxed manner. I understand that certain interactions can sometimes be exasperating, and it isn't that unusual for mod team here to hand out short term bans as a cooling off period for posters. That's not a "guilty, 20 years in prison!" sentence. It's an opportunity to step away from the keyboard and take a deep breath. I get the distinct impression you might have misinterpreted it as something more, and asking for an "appeal" of what is effectively a cooling off period may have come across as combative or problematic. I don't know since I'm not seeing anything in particular in relation to this.

That said, we have limited tools available to us, and we're not paid employees who are going to spend time making significant edits to posts to make them compliant with the rules. In general, mod team makes light edits, removes posts from view, warns or bans users, or in the worst cases marks posts as spam. Perhaps readjusting your notions about all of this would be appropriate. Where rules are bent or broken, even just in spirit, it is okay to report a post and make a calm, levelheaded report of the issue, and let mod team consider the issue.

The following is somehow apropos and I suggest you reflect upon it: "Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.” ― George Bernard Shaw.

 

[truecharts]

@jgreco To make a few issues a bit more clear:
- The ban above user talked about was on our discord and is/was not related to iX Systems in any way, shape or form.
- Nor are we, or our staff, related to iX Systems in any way shape or form.
- Big portions of our project and/or community are not even ran by Ornias anymore by now (primary maintainer for the biggest trains at this date is @StavrosMadK). TrueCharts is not a one-man show: We've 2 maintainers (Ornias and Stavros), about a hand full continues big contributors/devs and about 7 support staff (excluding maintainers)

 

[jgreco]

It would be nice, then, if this didn't boil over and become an issue here. As noted, the mod team here isn't iX staff either, so when you guys fail to handle stuff equitably on your Discord and it boils over here, then that's consuming time I could be taking to do more useful things.

 

[truecharts]

It would be nice, then, if this didn't boil over and become an issue here. As noted, the mod team here isn't iX staff either, so when you guys fail to handle stuff equitably on your Discord and it boils over here, then that's consuming time I could be taking to do more useful things.

That's very understandable and also why we decline to go into detail here either.
At the same time: we ofcoarse cannot always guarantee angry users don't become your problem either ;-)

 

[Robert Thomspon]

Hold on... Let's be perfectly transparent here.
I am not blaming IX... In any way, shape, or form. I thought I was pretty concise on who I believed to be to blame (that being truecharts and their ecosystem).

I am very aware that these two teams are individual and seperate. HOWEVER, as truecharts is intimately integrated into TrueNAS (insofar as sharing their actual nomenclature of services) it should not be a surprise that others (including myself) often confuse the two for being one.

As for the boil over, again, when left with no other discourse (like what I did there?) with which to obtain a rapid response to a broken system that was caused (for whatever it's worth and by whatever caused it) a system to become unstable (in this case, an update caused all apps to disappear) it is not an unsreasonable thing to think that the first course of action would be to reach out to the devs of the broken part of the machine. When that ability is wholly removed from an individual because of the inability of moderators to act in a non-childish manner, it only makes logical sense for a user to in effect 'climb the chain up' until they can find some help.

My issue was most likely something not being up to date before an update, leading to a cascade effect that left me with 0 apps installed.

That was my fault, my issue, and a direct result of actions I took...

Seeking help is what one does when one is faced with a situation outside of their wheelhouse.

With that said though, spilling over here when no other options are available is only a logical happening.

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My ban from Discord occured something along these lines (I do not have the verbatim as I'm banned from the channel and this, can not copy/paste... TRUECHARTS should have the ability if they desire.

I had an issue where Kubernetes broke and therefore took down all of my apps (I forget the root cause). I reached out to truecharts discord for advice. I was pro.pted to open a ticket which was shortly closed as it was not pertinent to truecharts. (At the time, I was (as most probably are) unaware that Truecharts is NOT a subdivision in any way of IX). The ticket was... Mildly combative... wherein I was asking for simple instructions for command line tools to figure out wtf was going on. The ticket then had me removed as an author and I could not comment.
I opened another ticket that was immediately closed (I believe it was commenting on how I worked around the break). (At this time, there still had been almost no actual instruction or help from truecharts. I believe they ultimately insisted that I follow up with ix)
One of the devs began a private chat with me that iirc, got him to suspend me for I think, 24 hours. I called him an incel. I got a 7 day suspension from ?midnight?. I then PMed ?midnight? Asking if that's not an unfair suspension, calling an ahole an ahole... To which his response contained no words, but DID contain a permanent ban.

Now mind you, not a single time have I mentioned the name of the problematic dev, but several lines above you can find his name repeatedly as the one who is the likely individual. That assumption is 100% correct.

Which again begs the question: EHY is he allowed the powers and presence to ultimately get someone perma-banned when he is a known instigator and trouble maker himself. I don't let my 2 year old use a megaphone for these reasons, maybe an adult over there should take his away until he learns to play nice with others...

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That all being said:
I appologize for highjacking this thread. I had assumed that, because my symptoms were similar, my cause might also be similar (with apps disappearing). I would have known better had I had adequate documentation to pull from from a ready source or been treated in other circles less like a nusiance and more like a person.

 

[truecharts]

I am very aware that these two teams are individual and seperate. HOWEVER, as truecharts is intimately integrated into TrueNAS (insofar as sharing their actual nomenclature of services) it should not be a surprise that others (including myself) often confuse the two for being one.

As for the boil over, again, when left with no other discourse (like what I did there?) with which to obtain a rapid response to a broken system that was caused (for whatever it's worth and by whatever caused it) a system to become unstable (in this case, an update caused all apps to disappear) it is not an unsreasonable thing to think that the first course of action would be to reach out to the devs of the broken part of the machine.

This is actually an ongoing issue that we're still working hard on to clear up more, but that will take time.
We've also had some good feedback from other similair projects in the last few weeks about what we could tweak to make the seperation more clear (on our side and to discuss/submit with/to iX).

It's an issue that in some cases is a lot bigger than TrueCharts, because there are many layers that have different organisations responsible for the support:
- OS (iX)
- Installer (TrueCharts)
- Container (Container creator)
- Application (Application creator)

Sadly enough we're kinda short-staffed with multiple big projects going on, so some things take the back burner a bit.

WHY is he allowed the powers and presence to ultimately get someone perma-banned when he is a known instigator and trouble maker himself.

While our whole core-team (including Ornias) technically is capable of perma-banning anyone.
If there is any significant disagreement about it, we generally do not ban anyone.

In cases where you think a moderator or admin has gone to far, we've our appeals policy.

If you want any more information on the grounds behind your ban, our staff decisions, option to file complaints and/or the appeals policy, you should get into contact with any of our official accounts. As this does seem to go far off-topic here.