The most basic questions

[skurt]

Hi,
before you start telling me to go and search - I did, for two days. And I haven't found any information that I would consider answers to my questions.
I have two main questions.
1) Do I need RAID support on my motherboard in order to use RAID-related stuff in NAS. Or in more detail - is my assumption correct that if the motherboard supports RAID 0 and 1 (=NOT 5), I can NOT use RAID 5 within FreeNAS?
I guess the answer is yes, but I also believe that if you do RAID on motherboard, you set it up on BIOS level. Not on OS level. And FreeNAS is an OS. Therefore one of my assumptions must be false.
I'm just unable to find which one.

2) There are many parts involved. I mean HW parts. Let's say that there are not important parts and important parts.
Not important are drives - because I will use the whole RAID stuff to be able to overcome a drive to fail. But also processor - because I believe that if my processor dies, I'll by a new one that fits and boot - and still see my data. That's why they are not important.
But then there is something important. I'm not sure what, either motherboard, or bootable storage or ...something else.
Important because when I replace it, I'm not going to boot.
Such part I'd have to replace and install fresh OS. And then what happens to my data sitting on the drives.
Btw in this case I assume that as soon as I turn on RAID of any type (even mirroring), every single drive is unreadable for another computer.
So if one of my important parts dies, how do I get back to my data?

 

[MatthewSteinhoff]

1. No. In fact, it is better if you don't have RAID on the motherboard or controller. The more bare and direct the drive connection the happier FreeNAS will be. FreeNAS will supply all the protection itself.

2. FreeNAS is mostly hardware agnostic. As long as FreeNAS can directly read the drives and have enough of them, it doesn't really matter what machine they are in. The drive configuration is stored on the drives themselves. Even if you replace every component and reinstall FreeNAS, it should be able to get to the data on the drives. FreeNAS is resilient.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[skurt]

Thank you for your answer, but I don't feel convinced.
1. Considering this - I just need to pick the cheapest motherboard with 4 sata connectors (ECC is nice to have) and I'm all set - that doesn't sound right.
Especially that the motherboards you suggest somewhere on this forum are 6-8 times more expensive than cheap ones.
How does it work then? If my motherboard cannot do RAID, I install Freenas OS and that does what? Software RAID? That actually sounds to me even worse. Like if nothing breaks and I break my system somehow, I still could lose the data.

2. "it should be able" isn't really the kind of safety measure I'm looking for.
I would rather know something around the lines of: If your [this and that and that] dies, than your whole freenas is dead. But the data is save and here's how to get back to the data: [http://howToInsertDrivesFromFailedNasIntoADifferntComputer.com] or [1) You get the new part 2) Take the drives out, the new part in 3) install Free NAS again 4) insert the drives back 5) Click the huge green button that says:"Recover the data from the drives from another NAS that failed"]

 

[MatthewSteinhoff]

ECC isn't just nice to have. In my mind, it's a requirement. I'm not sure you really understand FreeNAS. It would be worth your time to read some basic overviews of FreeNAS and ZFS.

Of note, all RAID is software. Even the RAID baked into high-dollar cards. The primary difference is FreeNAS (ZFS, really) is smarter, more often updated and more resilient than the RAID in your typical card.

There are no absolutes. Almost always, you can replace your motherboard, processor, HBA, power supply, case, RAM, operating system, FreeNAS installation, etc. and still be able to access your data.

How about an example? Let's say your building catches fire. You have all your data on a seven-drive RAIDZ2 array. In the rush to evacuate, you are only able to grab five of those seven drives. You can take those five drives, toss them in another computer that has none of the same components of the original, run FreeNAS off an 8GB USB-stick and still be able to access your data. That's the brilliance of FreeNAS/ZFS.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[skurt]

Sir,
I said that ECC is nice to have because 1) It is. And 2) If I was choosing the cheapes motherboard with ECC support, it wouldn't really be the cheapest motherboard.
On a completely different note - I know the purpose of ECC and I will prefer to go that way.

And now regarging what I'm trying to get out of you, which is not briliant marketing material, but facts. Nothing more.
1) What HW do I need. But when I ask this question you will aim me at your zillion articles that I read and that did not help me.
So I'm asking What HW do I really, REALLY need?
To make things more simple - let's start with a motherboard.
I'd be guessing:
As many sata connectors as how many drive I want to go with. Alternatively PCI-e port and a SATA card in it.
Socket for processor [Preferably] Intel. Can be integrated?
Support for a maximum of 32 (64) Gigs of RAM. (DDR4 or is DDR3 sufficient?)
ECC is nice to have, but strongly recommended
RAID support - unnecessary?
I don't know what else to cover, I'm not that skilled, but if I go to the store and ask for the cheapest motherboard, I'm pretty sure it won't fly...because that's how that works.

2) You mentioned and example that I don't really understand as I don't know what RAIDZ2 is. What I know is that you claim that I'd be able to access my data, but I'm more interested in - how?

 

[MatthewSteinhoff]

what I'm trying to get out of you, which is not briliant marketing material, but facts.

I'm sorry, @skurt, I'm all out of facts and only have brilliant marketing materials left. Best of luck.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[skurt]

I understand.
But I must say I'm disapointed. I was expecting this attitude from Synology :(

Anyone else with answers?
I guess I solved #1 by finding a PC setup with RAID support. Free Nas can be installed on that machine, since I found a guy who did it.
So I can be blissfully ignorant about what exactly is 'doing' that RAID. Too bad, but I can work with that.

Regarding #2 - Is that really that complicated what to do to salvage your data? I don't believe there is nobody on this forum ready to deal with such an event.

 

[garm]

I’m not entirely sure what you want to know? It sounds like you have read the hardware guide and the manual, but your questions really dosent support that assumption.

The summary of the hardware guide is that you need reliable components meant for 24/7 operation, not blasting out FSP. You need (in my opinion) ECC RAM, any descent Intel CPU over 2000 passmark (for the NAS, want to run services add passmark score accordingly) and a motherboard that is meant for 24/7 operation. The motherboard should be server grade, have a Inter NIC and support all your other components. It doesn’t need to be the latest generation, a NAS is a low workload in a home. Then you need a solid power supply to power all this. Seasonic is good, ther are others as well.

Your hard drives need to be directly attached to the motherboard. Either through a PCIE HBA or the motherboard controller. If the motherboard has enough SATA ports go for it, just make sure you set the controller to AHCI in BIOS. You need to give ZFS direct access to your drives as it will do things like physically spread out writes over the platter to make the data more secure.

ZFS is all about data reliability, choose components to support that mission.

FreeNAS and your data is two separate things. If you loose your hardware but still have your drives you can get up and running again by just installing FreeNAS and reading back your config. If you loose your config you can manually import the drives to a fresh FreeNAS system. If you decide you hate FreeNAS you can import your drives to any other OS with a supported version of OpenZFS installed. The data is solid as long as your drives are healthy.

To combat drives wearing out you have “raid” redundancy that makes it possible to swap out drives. That way your data can be much older then the oldest drive in the pool.

But you will eventually loose the pool as well, too many drives fail or lightning strikes your house or what ever. For this you need backup, ZFS and RAID isn’t backup. You need a plan for storing important data in atleast two locations, the 1-2-3 rule is a good approach and should ensure your stuff survives most disasters.

Now, go read the hardware guide and the manual. Actually, read the manual atleast twice. If you post your hardware selection before you buy it, someone will give you feedback on it.

 

[skurt]

Hello,
well as I mentioned in this thread - #1 is solved. I found s small factor server - some HW for small companies and I also found an article from a guy who installed freenas on a very same HW.
But generally what I wanted to know is what to search for:
You go to an online store and want to filter motherboards by some sort of parameters.
Some you can search for - like number of SATA 6 connectors or socket type.
Some you can search for, but not the way you want. Like At least six sata connectors no matter if SATA3 or SATA6. For that you have to open every result and count.
Some you can't search for at all - like raid support yes / no. There you can go through every single one and hope that the store have good enough product descriptions
And some are simply not there - like motherboard is server grade yes / no, or built for 24/7 run yes / no - and you can start googling both what does that mean and how to tell that a specific motherboard meets...that thing...

I can deal with first 3 options, but I had to deal with the other two based on the materials avalable here.
So I wanted to know how to see and understand those choices so I can look for them via the first 3 options.
I don't think it's such a big deal - I don't know something, I ask. Isn't that what forums are for?

And regarding the other point, I think it was you, who answerd it epicly in another thread.
I guess I should've asked simpler in the first place.

 

[skurt]

Oh...regarding my not uderstanding motherboards and stuff.
You have some recommendations - but prices for those motherboards are quite egual to a done and finished Synology...box.
So I didn't take those into account, because if I did, I would stop right away and order that synology stuff.
I mean no offense by that. At all! That's just a fact.

 

[garm]

Synology isn’t an option to FreeNAS as they don’t use ZFS but some home brewed solution.

Even if the hardware isn’t cheap in retail it’s affordable in other ways. Prebuilt systems like Dell or HP servers, second hand off eBay. You don’t need the latest SuperMicro board. I replaced a 15 year old Pentium 4 based system a few years ago with a Dell T20 I bought on sale for €300.

If you get good gear it will outlast the consumer stuff by ages and pay for itself. But much more importantly, it will keep your data safe!

 

[adrianwi]

Hi,
before you start telling me to go and search - I did, for two days.

Surely after 2 days searching, you managed to find this > https://forums.freenas.org/index.php?resources/hardware-recommendations-guide.12/

If not, I'd suggest going out and buying that Synology box today ;)

 

[Chris Moore]

but I don't feel convinced.

I guess I solved #1 by finding a PC setup with RAID support.

No. That is wrong. You don't have a solution. You are not listening.

Is that really that complicated what to do to salvage your data?

There are a large number of possibilities that could cause data loss. Part of the solution is proper hardware selection to make the solution more resilient (resistant to failure) from the start.

 

[garm]

You would do better listening to people with experience and knowledge then bashing them.. best of luck sir, I won’t participate in your endeavor.

 

[Ericloewe]

Mod note:

This thread has been closed due to unacceptable behavior and language by the OP. In addition, all of the OP's questions could've been quickly answered by a cursory search of the forums.

Mods, please refer to report 893.