BUILD Suggestions about Storage device for FreeNAS NAS backups

[Borja]

Hello,

We have a NAS running FreeNAS with 8 disk and about 20TB storage. Its been running for about a year without problem, really fast, I build it from recommendations posted here in this forum.

Now, we started to store critical data on NAS and we need to make backups of all information stored. There is about 3TB data and we would like to make remote backups over Internet. We think that a storage device with 10TB approx. will be enough for about 3 years until we reach this capacity.

Backup info will never be used if NAS works ok and speed will be limited by internet bandwidth so no really fast device needed.

Can you guys recommend some device to store backups?

This question is a bit off topic. There is some help (guide or something) about making incremental backups from FreeNAS? What about using FTP, SFTP, others?

Thanks!
Borja.

 

[snaptec]

If it's just that case, go with a device that fits the hw requirements.
I like supermicro. Sc836 chassis f.e.
Then use zfs replication or rsync with --inplace option


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[melloa]

Here's my 2 cents.

For the FreeNAS you could use a i3, 16 GB RAM (8 could do it, but I like to let ZFS have some room), RAIDZ2 with 5x2 TiB HDs (minimum depending on HD cost on your country), and a SM motherboard. Check resources for recommended hardware.
With 5 drives, depending on the motherboard, you could do it without a HBA.
Not sure your sites will have static ips, so go with routers (pfSense?) that can support some sort of dynamic DNS and ipsec tunneling.
I like rsync for small stuff. You can have your datasets synced locally first, take the back-up box offsite, and continue increment.

 

[anodos]

"How to properly do backups" is actually fairly complex topic, and it really depends on context. Here are a few questions off the top of my head:

• Do you have any existing backup infrastructure / software? I'd start by looking into ways of leveraging that / incorporating into existing workflow.
• How do you envision using it for restores (downloading a single file that was deleted / forgotten, driving to the remote location and physically bringing the backup system to your LAN, etc)?
• Are you needing cold-storage going back for multiple years or just an exact copy of what you have on your main NAS?
• Are there any special legal data retention / protection requirements for your industry?

 

[MatthewSteinhoff]

We have a NAS running freenas with 8 disk and about 20TB storage. There is about 3TB data and we would like to make remote backups over Internet.

I'll second everything @anodos noted.

FreeNAS has wonderful, robust snapshot and replication features built right into the system. Use those features.

Since you're already an expert at building a FreeNAS server, just do that again. Your backup NAS, since all it does is receive snapshots, need not be as powerful as your primary FreeNAS. Especially since it will be replicated over the internet. If you have 32G in the primary, put 16G in the secondary. If you're using smallish, high-RPM disks in the primary, use huge, low-RPM disks in the secondary.

You need not make the backup FreeNAS hardware identical to the primary. Though, that is not a bad idea. If you blow out a component on your primary FreeNAS, it would be nice to drive across town, pull that part from the backup and then get the primary back online instead of having to promote the backup to primary.

Build your new FreeNAS server, configure it to work on your local network, get the two boxes synced up then take it offsite. How much of your data changes between snapshots? That'll give you an idea as to how long offsite replication will take. Unless you're dealing with giant dataset changes daily, you'll be surprised at how efficient FreeNAS is with replication.

We snapshot then replicate locally from FreeNAS to FreeNAS throughout the day. Outside normal business hours, we replicate a copy to another of our offices 40 miles away over the internet...

FreeNAS Primary -> pfSense -> IPSEC -> Internet -> IPSEC -> pfSense -> FreeNAS Offsite

The tunnel is encrypted. The upstream internet connection is 20 mbps while the downstream is 100 mbps. Local snapshot replication takes seconds to minutes. Offsite replication takes anywhere between half an hour and three hours depending on the size of the snapshot and the will of the internet.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[Arwen]

I'll third what @anodos said.

Another way to look at it, is to have cheap single disk backup solutions that back each
other up. Meaning several 8TB, (or 10TB if cheap enough), disks in there own chassis.
No RAID protection for a single backup server, but with proper monitoring, you get
notified when one of them goes down. Or just has bad blocks.

That scheme seems a bit silly, until you recognize that these single disk backup hosts
can be in different sites. Even spread apart in the same office or data center can make
a world of difference in reliability.

And yes, I'd use FreeNAS with ZFS on those single disk hosts. You get scrubing and
potentially live disk replacements when it's only a few bad blocks.

 

[Borja]

Here's my 2 cents.

For the FreeNAS you could use a i3, 16 GB RAM (8 could do it, but I like to let ZFS have some room), RAIDZ2 with 5x2 TiB HDs (minimum depending on HD cost on your country), and a SM motherboard. Check resources for recommended hardware.
With 5 drives, depending on the motherboard, you could do it without a HBA.
Not sure your sites will have static ips, so go with routers (pfSense?) that can support some sort of dynamic DNS and ipsec tunneling.
I like rsync for small stuff. You can have your datasets synced locally first, take the back-up box offsite, and continue increment.

First of all, thank for your help.

So, I read all of your responses and i noticed that nobody writes about OS. I mean, i was not sure about using freenas for the backup because of a cheaper solution maybe needs a more lightweight OS. What are the advantages of using freenas also for backup system compared with a, for example, synology NAS? I don't know much about ZFS replication, i think this can be one of this advantages. But, anyway i can use a zfs partition with a debian SO or something else and use this functionality? In the other hand, with sinology i think we can't use freenas builtin backup software, correct? so maybe could make a snapshot and send to the remote system using rsync? I'm a little confused here.

About your response, we have static public IP in the remote location, its over 150kms (90 miles). What are the alternatives to rsync for big stuff? 3TB is small stuff? :D

Thanks.

 

[Borja]

"How to properly do backups" is actually fairly complex topic, and it really depends on context. Here are a few questions off the top of my head:

• Do you have any existing backup infrastructure / software? I'd start by looking into ways of leveraging that / incorporating into existing workflow.
• How do you envision using it for restores (downloading a single file that was deleted / forgotten, driving to the remote location and physically bringing the backup system to your LAN, etc)?
• Are you needing cold-storage going back for multiple years or just an exact copy of what you have on your main NAS?
• Are there any special legal data retention / protection requirements for your industry?

- We have a terastation storing backups of the controller domain and other critical services, but nothing that can allocate this amount of data.
- The plan is only restore in case of fault ( the NAS become corrupt or the place is on fire or something like this). But no need for restore single file in this case.
- just exact copy of what i have on the NAS. Nobody modify NAS data, its auto-generated data or manually copied, but there arent different versions of single file, no need of storing "states" or versions.
- Good question. I think i have to take a look at this.

THANKS!

 

[Borja]

I'll second everything @anodos noted.

FreeNAS has wonderful, robust snapshot and replication features built right into the system. Use those features.

Since you're already an expert at building a FreeNAS server, just do that again. Your backup NAS, since all it does is receive snapshots, need not be as powerful as your primary FreeNAS. Especially since it will be replicated over the internet. If you have 32G in the primary, put 16G in the secondary. If you're using smallish, high-RPM disks in the primary, use huge, low-RPM disks in the secondary.

You need not make the backup FreeNAS hardware identical to the primary. Though, that is not a bad idea. If you blow out a component on your primary FreeNAS, it would be nice to drive across town, pull that part from the backup and then get the primary back online instead of having to promote the backup to primary.

Build your new FreeNAS server, configure it to work on your local network, get the two boxes synced up then take it offsite. How much of your data changes between snapshots? That'll give you an idea as to how long offsite replication will take. Unless you're dealing with giant dataset changes daily, you'll be surprised at how efficient FreeNAS is with replication.

We snapshot then replicate locally from FreeNAS to FreeNAS throughout the day. Outside normal business hours, we replicate a copy to another of our offices 40 miles away over the internet...

FreeNAS Primary -> pfSense -> IPSEC -> Internet -> IPSEC -> pfSense -> FreeNAS Offsite

The tunnel is encrypted. The upstream internet connection is 20 mbps while the downstream is 100 mbps. Local snapshot replication takes seconds to minutes. Offsite replication takes anywhere between half an hour and three hours depending on the size of the snapshot and the will of the internet.

Cheers,
Matt

Thanks. I understand your idea. But my primary nas setup cost us about 3300$. I'm looking for something about 800-1000$ for backups.

I'll do some research about this features you mention, i suppose to use that features, both system have to run freenas.

I found interesting what you mention about the replication duration. Our connection is a bit different. The upstream connection is 10mbps. The downstream is 300mbps. I think people can store 100 to 700mb/day. But first time we have to upload 3TB...This is what scares me more.

 

[Borja]

I'll third what @anodos said.

Another way to look at it, is to have cheap single disk backup solutions that back each
other up. Meaning several 8TB, (or 10TB if cheap enough), disks in there own chassis.
No RAID protection for a single backup server, but with proper monitoring, you get
notified when one of them goes down. Or just has bad blocks.

That scheme seems a bit silly, until you recognize that these single disk backup hosts
can be in different sites. Even spread apart in the same office or data center can make
a world of difference in reliability.

And yes, I'd use FreeNAS with ZFS on those single disk hosts. You get scrubing and
potentially live disk replacements when it's only a few bad blocks.

I appreciate your help and think your idea is great and cheaper than other solutions, but in this case, data protection policy require us to store backups in other building.

 

[anodos]

Thanks. I understand your idea. But my primary nas setup cost us about 3300$. I'm looking for something about 800-1000$ for backups.

I'll do some research about this features you mention, i suppose to use that features, both system have to run freenas.

I found interesting what you mention about the replication duration. Our connection is a bit different. The upstream connection is 10mbps. The downstream is 300mbps. I think people can store 100 to 700mb/day. But first time we have to upload 3TB...This is what scares me more.

A few quick thoughts:
If you use FreeNAS

• You can seed backups via LAN before moving the second freenas server offsite.
• If your primary freenas server is an Active Directory member server that serves samba shares, you can join the second freenas server to the domain then turn off "directory services" once you confirm it is working correctly. This will potentially make recovery in the case of catastrophic failure simply a plug-and-play affair. (a) plug backup server into LAN, (b)change datasets from read-only to read-write, (c) enable directory services, (d) push out GPO to change mapped network drives to point to backup server.

You can seed an Amazon S3 backup using an "AWS Snowball". FreeNAS has code to automatically back up to Amazon S3. Of course, with this you're trading capital expense for operating expense. Amazon also has virtual storage gateways that allow you to use conventional backup software with S3 (like a virtualized tape library).

Based on what you've written, ZFS replication to an offsite FreeNAS server sounds like a good option. Just don't do something dumb like buy white-label or used drives.

 

[snaptec]

3TB over zfs replication or rsync is really no problem with 10mbits.
Sure it will not be done in a couple of hours but it works.
I have customers that have 10tb+ of data and did their initial sync over wan with low upload.


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[Borja]

Thanks everyone. Im gonna do some research about what kind of FreeNAS machine can be built for 900-1000$. If I find something reliable at this price I go for it and zfs replication.

 

[MatthewSteinhoff]

what kind of freenas machine can be built for 900-1000$.

Used, enterprise-grade equipment can be had for cheap (under $500) and runs FreeNAS well. The greatest cost will be the drives.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[nojohnny101]

I'll echo @MatthewSteinhoff that is a very reasonable budget and can buy you quality hardware that will be an excellent backup target since you don't need your backup server to be a 1:1 drop-in replacement.

 

[Borja]

I'm tried to build a Freenas NAS for backups but i can't below the limit of 1000€. (raid z1)
Prices on my country:
- Supermicro X11SSL-F 233€
- Xeon 1220 v5 241€ (the cheapest that support ECC for this mobo?)
- 2x8GB 2400 200€
- 4x HGST Deskstar NAS 4TB (12TB avaliable storage) 748€
- Silverstone cs380 145€ (i really like supermicro case but very expensive)

This is over 1500€...

 

[anodos]

I'm tried to build a Freenas NAS for backups but i can't below the limit of 1000€. (raid z1)
Prices on my country:
- Supermicro X11SSL-F 233€
- Xeon 1220 v5 241€ (the cheapest that support ECC for this mobo?)
- 2x8GB 2400 200€
- 4x HGST Deskstar NAS 4TB (12TB avaliable storage) 748€
- Silverstone cs380 145€ (i really like supermicro case but very expensive)

This is over 1500€...

If you're just doing 4 drives, why not look into a pre-built option like a Lenovo TS140 or an HP M10v9? You might be able to cut down that cost considerably.

 

[Borja]

If you're just doing 4 drives, why not look into a pre-built option like a Lenovo TS140 or an HP M10v9? You might be able to cut down that cost considerably.

I think a TS140 with similar capacity and ECC ram costs the same... can you post an example? cant find hp m10v9 on my country. Thanks.

 

[anodos]

I think a TS140 with similar capacity and ecc ram costs the same... can you post an example? cant find hp m10v9 on my country. Thanks.

Meant ML10. I haven't tried FreeNAS on this, but I assume it'd work https://www.hpe.com/us/en/product-c...hpe-proliant-ml10-gen9-server.1008686780.html

Prices of course vary from country to country. In the USA you can find the ML10 on sale for around $200. Here is an example in Spain: https://www.amazon.es/ML10-G9-4U-g4...s&ie=UTF8&qid=1489445258&sr=1-3&keywords=ml10

 

[gpsguy]

Yeah, @Digitaldreams and I have placed orders for the $200 USD unit. I missed the UPS delivery today and will have to fetch it tomorrow night. *I* won't be able to test it, until my VGA dongle arrives.

Meant ML10. I haven't tried FreeNAS on this, but I assume it'd work