Opinions on my First FreeNAS Build

[Robert Trevellyan]

Yes, it's a viable solution. The benefit of eSATA over USB is that SMART checks and self-tests will work.

 

[Mr_Zero]

Yes, it's a viable solution. The benefit of eSATA over USB is that SMART checks and self-tests will work.

Is there a recommended PCIe eSATA card that gets along well with FreeNAS?

 

[Robert Trevellyan]

Is there a recommended PCIe eSATA card that gets along well with FreeNAS?

I don't think anything eSATA could be described as recommended for FreeNAS, but some members have backup systems in place with it. I've had success with a card with a Sil3132 chipset, which I used for reorganizing my storage a couple of times. Most old hands would tell you to avoid Marvell chipsets.

I wonder what @Arwen is using.

 

[wblock]

eSATA is just a different connector, although sometimes there is software support involved. There are adapter cables which can go from a motherboard SATA port to a slot cover. I personally have not had any better success with eSATA than with USB3. Actually, USB3 has worked nicely on FreeBSD 11 and 12 for me lately.

As an alternate, consider just putting a large capacity hard drive in a notebook computer and connecting it to the NAS over the network. That is fast and reliable. It's bigger than a portable drive, but not necessarily a lot bigger.

 

[Arwen]

...
I wonder what @Arwen is using.

...
There are adapter cables which can go from a motherboard SATA port to a slot cover. I personally have not had any better success with eSATA than with USB3.
...

My system is a FreeNAS Mini, (with Asrock Rack C2750D4I). I've used 2 of the
Intel 3Gbps SATA ports with a PCIe eSATA back plane, a short eSATA cable and
external hot swap chassis for my backups.

It's only connected for the backup disk's scrub and the actual backups. Otherwise
the external hot swap chassis is powered down. (The backup disks are not stored
in the external chassis between backups.)

Backups have been rock stable. Meaning I have had no problems recently. Early
problems were getting the hot swap part to work right. But that's documentation,
(my own for the sequence of events to hot add the backup disk.)

Note that I'd prefer an external SAS port with an external enclosure that has a small
SAS expander back plane, with 1 or 2 hot swap 3.5" disk bays. Thus, the actual
external protocol would be SAS, with it's higher voltage levels, (meaning longer and
more reliable cables), as well as higher level of error detection and correction. But,
my FreeNAS Mini as it is now, is cheaper and quite suitable for my use.

Edit: Clarified, I meant SAS expander for the back plane.

 

[Robert Trevellyan]

There are adapter cables which can go from a motherboard SATA port to a slot cover

Good point, I've used that combination successfully too. However, when doing it this way you have to remember to keep within the SATA cable length limit.

a short eSATA cable

 

[wblock]

Good point, I've used that combination successfully too. However, when doing it this way you have to remember to keep within the SATA cable length limit.

Sorry, meant to say an eSATA port on a slot cover.

 

[Ericloewe]

Sorry, meant to say an eSATA port on a slot cover.

Still very limited. Nominally 2 meters, in practice you'll get regular old 1 meter as with internal SATA, total length.

The only decent external solution is SAS, which for SATA disks implies an SAS expander in the enclosure.

 

[droeders]

The only decent external solution is SAS, which for SATA disks implies an SAS expander in the enclosure.

Agree with this, but I've had problems finding external SAS enclosures for 1 or 2 drives. Most are multi-disk, 4+ drive JBOD/RAID boxes that are overkill for what I want - an easily transportable offsite backup.

The closest thing I've found is the two drive enclosure here, with part number 11-0427:

https://www.pdetechnology.com/enclosures.htm#a18

I haven't contacted them to get more details on the unit, pricing, or to see if you can buy in small quantities.

I'd love to see other 1-2 drive external SAS options if I've somehow not found them.

 

[Ericloewe]

Agree with this, but I've had problems finding external SAS enclosures for 1 or 2 drives. Most are multi-disk, 4+ drive JBOD/RAID boxes that are overkill for what I want - an easily transportable offsite backup.

The closest thing I've found is the two drive enclosure here, with part number 11-0427:

https://www.pdetechnology.com/enclosures.htm#a18

I haven't contacted them to get more details on the unit, pricing, or to see if you can buy in small quantities.

I'd love to see other 1-2 drive external SAS options if I've somehow not found them.

I searched a lot back in 2014. I could not find any enclosure I'd feel comfortable about.

 

[droeders]

I searched a lot back in 2014. I could not find any enclosure I'd feel comfortable about.

What do you use for offsite backups?

I have a local machine for snapshots, but don't really trust cloud backup for all of my data (in case of natural disaster, fire, etc).

 

[Arwen]

What do you use for offsite backups?
...

If your data can fit into 1 or 2 much larger disks, you can use them for backups, (without
any RAIDing except perhaps striping if needed).

My backups use an 8TB Seagate Archive / SMR disk for full backups, (which include 1.5TBs
of media at present). And an older, left over 750GB disk for all, except the media. Perhaps by
the end of the year I'll get another 8TB, (or 10TB), disk to add to the rotation.

The backup disks are stored in anti-static baggies, then put in a hard shell plastic case with
padding, (Seahorse brand). Easy to take off site, and if dropped, probably no damage.

 

[Arwen]

...
The closest thing I've found is the two drive enclosure here, with part number 11-0427:

https://www.pdetechnology.com/enclosures.htm#a18
...

Based on the web site, I am not sure those enclosures use a SAS expander on their back planes. From
what I can tell, that enclosure would likely use 2 external SAS ports. (Which may be a 4 port connector
with only 2 ports used.)

I'd love to see other 1-2 drive external SAS options if I've somehow not found them.

Yes, so would I. This would be ideal;

• 2 x 3.5" SAS / SATA drive bays, on SAS expander
  
• Drive bays don't need drive sled, (or easy to buy more drive sleds)
  
• Fan for drives, (helpful when running ZFS scrubs and full backups which may take hours or days).
  
• Internal power supply, (no power brick)
  
• Single eSATA style connector, (but can use SAS protocol @6Gbps or @12Gbps).
• USB 3 port with UAS, (USB Attached SCSI protocol), for additional connectivity

 

[droeders]

Based on the web site, I am not sure those enclosures use a SAS expander on their back planes. From
what I can tell, that enclosure would likely use 2 external SAS ports. (Which may be a 4 port connector
with only 2 ports used.)

You could be right about this enclosure, but see below.

Yes, so would I. This would be ideal;

• 2 x 3.5" SAS / SATA drive bays, on SAS expander
  
• Drive bays don't need drive sled, (or easy to buy more drive sleds)
  
• Fan for drives, (helpful when running ZFS scrubs and full backups which may take hours or days).
  
• Internal power supply, (no power brick)
  
• Single eSATA style connector, (but can use SAS protocol @6Gbps or @12Gbps).
• USB 3 port with UAS, (USB Attached SCSI protocol), for additional connectivity

Take a look at part number 11-0504-MS or 11-0504-MS-LT. I think these satisfy the first 4 of your items above, and they appear to meet all of my requirements.

See this PDF for more details:

https://www.pdetechnology.com/PDF SPECS/rm_enclosure/SATA-MiniSAS-Enclosures.pdf

I'm going to contact PDE Technology and see if I can get pricing information and maybe a product manual or spec sheet.

 

[Ericloewe]

What do you use for offsite backups?

I have a local machine for snapshots, but don't really trust cloud backup for all of my data (in case of natural disaster, fire, etc).

Replication.

 

[Arwen]

You could be right about this enclosure, but see below.

Take a look at part number 11-0504-MS or 11-0504-MS-LT. I think these satisfy the first 4 of your items above, and they appear to meet all of my requirements.

See this PDF for more details:

https://www.pdetechnology.com/PDF SPECS/rm_enclosure/SATA-MiniSAS-Enclosures.pdf

I'm going to contact PDE Technology and see if I can get pricing information and maybe a product manual or spec sheet.

Hmm, that does come close.

It does not have a SAS expander, but that could possibly be added after.

Plus, it does appear you can change out the external connector panel. Thus, for me in the short term,
I'd use 2 eSATA style connectors, one to each drive. Later, if I upgrade my NAS to something that has
external SAS ports, I could change it back to SAS and possible add a SAS expander.

Note that if you use a straight path from SAS controller to SATA disk, the cable MUST follow SATA
limitations in length. But, if you have a SAS expander in the external chassis, the SAS expander will
perform the SATA to SAS conversion, (aka Serial ATA Tunneling Protocol, STP). Thus, a SAS port
from the host to the external chassis can use 10 meter cabling, not that you would want to... But, SAS
uses higher voltages, thus more reliable for longer cables and multiple connectors, (like used in external
chassis').

 

[droeders]

It does not have a SAS expander, but that could possibly be added after.

Not sure how you determined this, but maybe I'm missing something obvious.

Plus, it does appear you can change out the external connector panel. Thus, for me in the short term,
I'd use 2 eSATA style connectors, one to each drive. Later, if I upgrade my NAS to something that has
external SAS ports, I could change it back to SAS and possible add a SAS expander.

Note that if you use a straight path from SAS controller to SATA disk, the cable MUST follow SATA
limitations in length. But, if you have a SAS expander in the external chassis, the SAS expander will
perform the SATA to SAS conversion, (aka Serial ATA Tunneling Protocol, STP). Thus, a SAS port
from the host to the external chassis can use 10 meter cabling, not that you would want to... But, SAS
uses higher voltages, thus more reliable for longer cables and multiple connectors, (like used in external
chassis').

Good notes for anyone that comes across this thread...

I did get a response from PDE, but I'd double check if you plan to buy:

• Cost: $290/unit or $250/unit for quantity 4+
• Speed/Size: 6Gbps with no size limitation on the drives
  
• Spec sheet: got a bit more information, but not much (mostly related to the power supply). I can send the PDF if requested.

Not sure if I'm going to try one or not. I think I can build something for cheaper, but it likely won't be as polished.

 

[Arwen]

...
It does not have a SAS expander, but that could possibly be added after.
...

Not sure how you determined this, but maybe I'm missing something obvious.
...

SAS expanders are silicon chips that take 1 or more SAS ports from a host and connect to 1 or more disks,
(or other expanders). This adds cost and complexity, but can add benefit in the form of chassis monitoring
functions like fan speed and tempeture. That's because some, (but not all), SAS expanders include SES,
(SCSI Enclosure Services), as a feature. Some SAS expanders are on the disk back planes, as part of the disk
back plane.

So, an external chassis with 2 disk bays and requires 2 host bus adapter ports, (2 x eSATA, or 2 out of a 4
port SAS cable), is highly unlikely to have a SAS expander chip in it. A single SAS port at 6Gbps can handle
at least 4 spinning SATA disks at full speed.

Further, external chassis with SAS expander chips tend to support both SAS & SATA disks, since they would
normally have to be controlled by a SAS host bus adapter.

Many addon SAS expanders I found support 2 dozen ports or more;

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2/156-0553305-6604730?url=search-alias=computers&field-keywords=SAS+expander+card

One of the best manufacturers of SAS products, (and SCSI products before SAS), is LSI. They got bought by
Avago, which also bought Broadcom. Here is their SAS expander product page;

https://www.broadcom.com/products/storage/sas-expanders/

It's a shame they don't make an 8 port SAS expander for smaller enclosures. That would be perfect for 2 or 4
disks, since it would support a single host SAS lane for spinning media. But could use 4 host SAS lanes, (4 x
6Gbps), for SSDs. And even today, SAS III standard should be supported, which is 12Gbps. Further, SAS IV
is just around the corner at 22.5Gbps, (using better encoding such that it's still twice the bandwidth of SAS
12Gbps).

Gee, I got on my soap box, and stayed too long... Need to stop preaching / teaching...