NTFS vs ZFS and ECC dilemma

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Eli Singer

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Currently have 6 drives in 3 pairs of RAID 1 on a Z87 board.
Thinking of building a NAS box so exploring FreeNAS etc.

I read some confusing posts about RAM curropting files and such when NOT using RAID.
Since i am using RAID, i wanted to know if there's an advantage going with FreeNAS and ZFS instead of Windows with NTFS on a normal system.
Couldn't quite understand why ECC is so paramount in that regard.
Could someone please explain or point me to an explenation since i couldn't find one that answered my pondring?...

Thanks,

Eli
 

Sakuru

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Bidule0hm

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Eli Singer

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Ok, that was a really interesting read. Need to go over it again to fully get everything.
Thank you guys.
The last link Bidule0hm listed was very enlightening and this part really stuck with me:

"Example 1: Running a server with its native file system(probably ext3, NTFS, or HFS+), non-ECC RAM. The only way you can expect to lose your entire drive's worth of data is if your drive actually fails completely. If your RAM goes bad you'll potentially lose a few files to corruption that have been recently opened. You may have to run a chkdsk/fsck on the partition to get it back in good shape. But you'll be able to take that disk and put it in another machine and get most(if not all) of your data back. Even a worst case scenario there's plenty of tools like Ontrack EasyRecovery DIY Software that will work for NTFS and you can expect to have a reasonable chance of getting most(if not all) of your data back. You can also call those data recovery professionals and for 4-figures they might get your data back from a failed disk."

Maybe it's because i never used ZFS and new to it, but wouldn't it be a lot simpler and still really really safe to stick with RAID 1 on an NTFS system like i do now instead of going ZFS?
I also really value the fact that in RAID 1, if a drive fails or if the whole array falls apart for some reason, i can simply take the drive and use it on any system like a regular drive. When using ZFS as one should (with ECC) i do get ultimate protection so it seems (if done right) but data can only be read by ZFS which is not very friendly or common.

Am i making sense thinking of going regular NTFS hardware RAID 1 instead of ZFS and FreeNAS or is there something important i'm missing that is problematic in that configuration?

Eli
 

anodos

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Ok, that was a really interesting read. Need to go over it again to fully get everything.
Thank you guys.
The last link Bidule0hm listed was very enlightening and this part really stuck with me:

"Example 1: Running a server with its native file system(probably ext3, NTFS, or HFS+), non-ECC RAM. The only way you can expect to lose your entire drive's worth of data is if your drive actually fails completely.
Or the RAID controller fails spectacularly, or your BBU runs out of juice and you're lazy about replacing it then have some bad luck. ZFS when used on a properly designed and maintained system is extremely reliable. No matter what FS you use, bad things can happen. That's why you have backups.

When using ZFS as one should (with ECC) i do get ultimate protection so it seems (if done right) but data can only be read by ZFS which is not very friendly or common.
Installing FreeNAS or FreeBSD on a boot medium and importing a zpool is not a very high bar.

Am i making sense thinking of going regular NTFS hardware RAID 1 instead of ZFS and FreeNAS or is there something important i'm missing that is problematic in that configuration?
It might be better suited for the hardware and skills you have. The best system is the one that you know how to properly administer (or are willing to learn how to administer).
 

JDCynical

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Maybe it's because i never used ZFS and new to it, but wouldn't it be a lot simpler and still really really safe to stick with RAID 1 on an NTFS system like i do now instead of going ZFS?
Except, as far as I know and can find, NTFS does not protect against bit rot, where ZFS does.

I also really value the fact that in RAID 1, if a drive fails or if the whole array falls apart for some reason, i can simply take the drive and use it on any system like a regular drive. When using ZFS as one should (with ECC) i do get ultimate protection so it seems (if done right) but data can only be read by ZFS which is not very friendly or common.
Unless you find a OpenZFS port for the system you put the drive in. But really, how often is a mirror setup going to 'eat itself'?

Am i making sense thinking of going regular NTFS hardware RAID 1 instead of ZFS and FreeNAS or is there something important i'm missing that is problematic in that configuration?
It depends on your comfort level and personal acceptable risk level.

As for the question of ECC, it is strongly recommended because Really Bad Things (tm) can happen if your RAM develops a problem and the ECC isn't there to catch it.

From the 'Guide of things not to do', I offer this reddit post linked in that guide as well 'Non ECC RAM Eats Pool'. Granted, the chances of this type of thing happening and taking out a pool isn't exactly high, but it can happen as shown by the post.

Again, depends on your personal level of risk acceptance.
 

rs225

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In regard to bitrot, ZFS on a single drive is better than any kind of NTFS on any kind of RAID. The NTFS will never detect any kind of corruption, whereas the ZFS can tell you that you have corruption. You can then use your backup, which you replicate to another single drive ZFS, to restore a known good copy of whatever is corrupted. Remember, even on a single drive pool, ZFS keeps duplicate metadata.

ECC is recommended. If you don't use ECC, at least run a memory test once a year to detect the more obvious kinds of memory failure.

Edit to add: If you are more comfortable with NTFS (and good backups), then maybe you would be better just doing a RAID1 with what you know. As you point out, the portability of NTFS may be more important in your situation.
 
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maglin

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Where bad ram can eat a pool is during a scrub. With ECC this is averted as well as using a RAIDZ1+ array as during the scrub any bit rot is found and fixed with the parity data. This is how I understand it. If you are running FreeNAS and only using a single disk I think you are just wasting electricity running the box. You would be better off just putting the drive in a Windows box and using samba to share across your network.
And ZFS can be accessed by most all file systems through CIFS. So I'm not to sure what you mean about accessing it. You can make a USB boot device for another computer and transport your drives to that system in case of a hardware failure. Disk failure is far more devastating on most all non ZFS systems. Use RAIDz2 or more and you have a very slim chance of total data loss. I haven't seen anyone lose there data that wasn't there fault either through using console commands without knowing what they where doing. Or by using the wrong hardware and or under recommend system specs.

I forgot to also say don't use encryption. That has got people as well. You put your key somewhere and years latter you have to move or import your array and you lost your key and all your data with it. Instead use good network practices to secure.


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Eli Singer

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Thank you for all of your valuable inputs.

As i research more i become more at ease with the idea of moving to FreeNAS and ZFS.
I don't see a scenario where i would have a pool of only one drive. it will always be mirrored or for the very least another kind of RAID configuration that is redundant.

I am still unsure of how to access a ZFS drive in a case of a failure. Minimal downtime is important to me and like i said it is one of the perks with RAID 1 on NTFS, there's n0 downtime since the other drive can continue to work as normal and even if the machine failed, it can go straight into the main machine.
If i understand correctly (and it is very possible that i do not), i need a third system to put the ZFS drive on so i can access it from my main system in the case of a hardware failure that disables the original server? Given that i didn't export it from the array because of a sudden failure that is.
I can't plug the drive to my main system and access it through windows unless i setup VM and whatnot which i understand could prove to be problematic.
Am i getting this right?

Another thing i don't quite understand is whether using ECC memory on a NTFS RAID 1 system is helpful against bit rot and how?
I understand it points out a faulty DIMM module, but if there's a rot on one of the drives, does it help in any way?
Since there's no parity metadata to compare (unlike ZFS) i presume it doesn't help?

And lastly, I've been messing around with a build for the FreeNAS server and wanted to share it and ask for your opinion and suggestions. I'm thinking of going with this: http://pcpartpicker.com/user/eli_singer/saved/vtmnTW
here's a rundown here also:

Intel Xeon E3-1220 V5 3.0GHz Quad-Core Processor
Scythe Kotetsu 79.0 CFM CPU Cooler
Supermicro MBD-X11SSH-LN4F Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard
Kingston ValueRAM 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4-2133 Memory
Fractal Design Define R4 w/Window (Black Pearl) ATX Mid Tower Case
SeaSonic 520W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully-Modular Fanless ATX Power Supply

What say you?

Oh, and one more thing, given that i will use a 1GB Ethernet connection (until 10GB will become reasonably priced), is there any reason to go with the ZFS equivalent of RAID 10 or any other striped configuration (that has redundancy obviously)?
Wouldn't the network bottleneck the whole thing at 125MB/s?

Thank you all again!

Eli
 
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gpsguy

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Here's an idea for you and one that I used in 2012. Install another NTFS disk in your main machine and backup FreeNAS to in (Robocopy, etc). You should be backing up your system anyway. Should you have a problem on the server, you have access to the backup.

In my case, I was moving data from Server 2003 to FreeNAS and backing it up as I went. At some point FreeNAS quit working and it wasn't obvious what the problem was.

Months later (free time non-existent) I replaced the server, moved the disks and flash drive and all was well again. While the system was down, I was able to use my NTFS backup.


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Eli Singer

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I don't understand how did you use FreeNAS on the NTFS drive?
 

Eli Singer

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I think i need a more detailed explanation for that, sorry for my Noobines

Eli
 

Eli Singer

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If the original FreeNAS server machine is down, how would booting FreeNAS on a different machine help?
And why is it NTFS?
Confused...
 

pirateghost

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If the original FreeNAS server machine is down, how would booting FreeNAS on a different machine help?
And why is it NTFS?
Confused...
Ignore FreeNAS in this situation.

He was suggesting that you use an NTFS drive in your client machine to make a backup.
 

Eli Singer

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So the backup is for the data not for the FreeNAS?
That's what got me confused.
So i still don't know what is the best practice for a hardware failure like i described.

Eli
 

pirateghost

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So the backup is for the data not for the FreeNAS?
That's what got me confused.
So i still don't know what is the best practice for a hardware failure like i described.

Eli
best practice for a hardware failure is to just boot up your FreeNAS USB on another machine with your data drives connected....
 

Eli Singer

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Yes, but for that i need a spare machine which is not something i have lying around...
 

pirateghost

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Yes, but for that i need a spare machine which is not something i have lying around...
Why would you need a spare machine?

If you have a motherboard die, replace the motherboard. Same with any other component...then just boot your FreeNAS up.
 
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