Just a newb question here!

lasse48

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Jan 31, 2023
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Hello.

I am very new to all this server topic, but i have some questions about hardware.
So i am about to build a server but i am unsure if i should go with an Intel Xeon Or INTEL Core i9-13900K?
Also do i really need ECC ram or can i go with None ECC?

What my searches have told me is i should go with an Intel Xeon and ECC ram.
But its alot of money for a new server so i just want to be 100% sure before i buy my stuff.

I hope someone can give me an answer to this, thanks.
 

jgreco

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The Xeons typically require ECC because a good server is designed to be resilient against errors. You don't have to use a Xeon and ECC, but it's a damn good idea to do so anyways.

You don't need "new" expensive equipment. There are lots of options for less expensive servers that are a few generations old on the used server market. Many of these are perfectly fine for TrueNAS.
 

danb35

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You don't need "new" expensive equipment.
Not only that, you probably don't even want new expensive equipment--the chance of its being supported well, especially under CORE, is much less than if you go a generation or two back.
 

lasse48

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Hey jgeco and danb35, many thanks for your replys.
I think i am gona go with an Intel Xeon then.
Will keep that i mind when i go shop for hardware.
 

joeschmuck

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Hello.

I am very new to all this server topic, but i have some questions about hardware.
So i am about to build a server but i am unsure if i should go with an Intel Xeon Or INTEL Core i9-13900K?
Also do i really need ECC ram or can i go with None ECC?

What my searches have told me is i should go with an Intel Xeon and ECC ram.
But its alot of money for a new server so i just want to be 100% sure before i buy my stuff.

I hope someone can give me an answer to this, thanks.
Well I'm going to say this... Define your "Use Case" (what are you using it for and how important is the data to you? Importance can mean a few things but for this, lets call it how much pain would you feel to reinstall all the data lost, assuming you have a backup of the data in the first place? This question alone should provide you the answer on ECC RAM and Data Redundancy (for your hard drives).
 

lasse48

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Well I'm going to say this... Define your "Use Case" (what are you using it for and how important is the data to you? Importance can mean a few things but for this, lets call it how much pain would you feel to reinstall all the data lost, assuming you have a backup of the data in the first place? This question alone should provide you the answer on ECC RAM and Data Redundancy (for your hard drives).

I am very glad i could ask my question here before buying the hardware.
Thanks joeschmuck, for your answer.
 

joeschmuck

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And Welcome to the Forums!
 
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The Xeons typically require ECC because a good server is designed to be resilient against errors. You don't have to use a Xeon and ECC, but it's a damn good idea to do so anyways.

You don't need "new" expensive equipment. There are lots of options for less expensive servers that are a few generations old on the used server market. Many of these are perfectly fine for TrueNAS.

Thank you jgreco,

Sound advice as always. I built my Freenas server with all the great advice from this board, and now it just always works, never goes down and didn't cost me an arm and a leg.

My one complaint however, is that the user experience for windows VMs hosted on it is a bit sluggish. I realize maybe this is not the primary function of a nas / san server. Am I expecting too much? If I want faster virtual machines for my home lab, should I invest in a high end workstation, with something like the Core i9-13900K lasse48 mentioned? Then just mount VM drives to iscsi as needed?

Or is it reasonable to investigate upgrading to a more powerful platform for my Freenas server? And if I do, should I only consider server platforms? Never a non ecc platform such as the Core i9-13900K?
 
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jgreco

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My one complaint however, is that the user experience for windows VMs hosted on it is a bit sluggish.

In my experience, user experience for Windows as a VM is generally going to be nowhere near as ... impressive ...? as Windows on a physical machine. This has lots to do with lots of factors; Windows is big and piggy and memory intensive, most of which get snubbed somewhat in a VM environment. I don't do VM's on TrueNAS but rather on ESXi, which is generally considered the gold standard for virtualization. I suspect that both Scale's KVM and Core's bhyve implementations are nowhere near as tuned and polished as ESXi, so I would expect that to be a further step in the unimpressive direction.

If I want faster virtual machines for my home lab, should I invest in a high end workstation, with something like the Core i9-13900K

Faster processors can result in a better virtualized experience, but so can going wider with more cores of a slower CPU. That's why Xeon E5's, for example, typically have a larger number of slower cores. You will not get stellar single-core performance, though, so you really need to think "do I really need faster" or "is wider better". Because a high end CPU from a decade ago like an E5-2697 v2 is cheaply available, in a dual socket configuration, will land you a Geekbench5 of 13000-14000. Your i9-13900K will get you 25000, but is more limited in various ways (such as only 128GB) whereas I can get a terabyte going pretty easily on the ol' 2697's. It really depends where your workload focus is. Sorry if there are no totally happy answers here.
 
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Sorry if there are no totally happy answers here.

Actually, your response is very helpful. If TrueNAS is really good at managing storage, and ESXi is really good at hosting VMs: Perhaps the best approach is to stop trying to make my TrueNAS server better at hosting VMs, let it keep what it is doing well, and build a new server for hosting my VMs with Proxmox or ESXi.

Anyone know where I can get some sound advice on hardware for a virtualization server? Maybe it's a bit off topic for this board? Should I be thinking Xeon E5s and ECC DDR4 for this type of a setup as well? I know I tried to put together an ESXi server many years ago and found that it did NOT seem to get along well with consumer grade hardware at all.
 
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jgreco

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found that it did NOT seem to get along well with consumer grade hardware at all.

This is very correct. It's not that it cannot be made to work, it's more that VMware has very little interest in making (for example) Realtek ethernet cards work, because we know from firsthand experience that they suck.


Through ESXi 6.7, VMware allowed the use of certain Linux drivers for various devices through the use of a compatibility shim layer. That ("officially") went away in 7.0, and AFAIK the hack workarounds for desperate types went away entirely in ESXi 8.0. For additional PITA bonus points, VMware has deprecated a bunch of older CPU support, including Sandy, Ivy, Haswell, Broadwell, and Avoton. This is very disappointing to those of us who have traditionally shopped the older generation stuff to cherry pick great deals from off-lease datacenter gear. I still recommend that as a strategy, however. VMware had good reasons for this and gave us effectively an entire major version's worth of warning that deprecations were coming. I don't really expect that they will get super-aggressive with further deprecations in the near future, because they do stand to lose some customers to Proxmox.

And so, while I am not a particular fan of Proxmox, I will point out that a lot of older gear that is now ESXi-deprecated may still be supported by Proxmox. There may be more of a learning curve and fewer safeguards. ESXi has an awesome HCL system with detailed driver and firmware requirements; if you find stuff on the HCL and meet the driver and firmware specifications, that device is VERY likely to work. So like this, the HCL entry for the Dell PERC H740P. This does not seem to be the case with Proxmox, which is more of a "based on Linux" mentality that I associate with more of an amateur/hobbyist product. This is not to imply that it's going to be crashing all over the place every few hours, but some of us run gear thousands of miles away and cannot be constantly babysitting it when it PSOD's.

In my experience, most server-oriented systems run ESXi just fine, so if you can find a post-Broadwell system with storage and network controllers on the ESXi HCL, then Google around a bit to find out what comments (if any) homelabbers have on it, you have better than normal odds. You can also focus on prebuilts from Dell if you like, since Dell owned VMware until just recently. Usually highly compatible. I am going to stick my head out of my wheelhouse a bit and go so far as to say that anything that has been known to run ESXi well in the recent past will probably also run Proxmox just fine as well, so that's like Supermicro X9, X10 gear that got deprecated in ESXi 8.0.

Maybe it's a bit off topic for this board?

That's still fine. We do have an off-topic forum and if this thread goes that way too far, it can be moved.
 
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Do you think Ericlowe's TrueNAS Community Hardware Guide would be a good place to start for an ESXi server as well? It sure steered me in a great way with my TrueNAS setup. I suppose obviously, I would avoid all the advice about storage since I have that covered. You think there would be any other differences to keep in mind? I would assume for example, that I would need more processing power. And I would stick with ECC? Maybe some m.2 NVME slots would be good to have for VM boot drives? Maybe really fast RAM? Dual socket motherboard?
 
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jgreco

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Do you think Ericlowe's TrueNAS Community Hardware Guide would be a good place to start for an ESXi server as well? It sure steered me in a great way with my TrueNAS setup. I suppose obviously, I would avoid all the advice about storage since I have that covered. You think there would be any other differences to keep in mind? I would assume for example, that I would need more processing power. And I would stick with ECC? Maybe some m.2 NVME slots would be good to have for VM boot drives? Maybe really fast RAM? Dual socket motherboard?

A lot of the things that make for a good TrueNAS server are also good for ESXi. Server grade mainboards, high quality ethernets, ECC memory. However, ESXi benefits from CPU core counts, and older CPU's are now deprecated in modern ESXi, so you don't want older Sandy Bridge, Ivy, Haswell, Broadwell, or Avoton, even though those are FANTASTIC for TrueNAS. Additionally, I encourage the use of well-supported RAID controllers such as the Dell PERC H730 for running RAID1 datastores on an ESXi host, while this would not be usable with TrueNAS. You might want to go review this related thread:

 

a.dresner

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Thank you jgreco,

Sound advice as always. I built my Freenas server with all the great advice from this board, and now it just always works, never goes down and didn't cost me an arm and a leg.

My one complaint however, is that the user experience for windows VMs hosted on it is a bit sluggish. I realize maybe this is not the primary function of a nas / san server. Am I expecting too much? If I want faster virtual machines for my home lab, should I invest in a high end workstation, with something like the Core i9-13900K lasse48 mentioned? Then just mount VM drives to iscsi as needed?

Or is it reasonable to investigate upgrading to a more powerful platform for my Freenas server? And if I do, should I only consider server platforms? Never a non ecc platform such as the Core i9-13900K?
i9-13900K supports ECC memory
 

Etorix

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