Is TrueNAS the right solution for Docker in scale v23

[naderelos]

I am currently on v22.12 of scale and have opted not to configure k3s as part of the set up and just use bare metal docker/compose. I am not going to discuss the merit of using k3s over docker but want to understand what the end game is for TrueNAS scale. I have viewed a few merged PR’s on GitHub:

NAS-109044 / 23.10 / Phase out docker from middleware by sonicaj · Pull Request #10247 · truenas/middleware

This PR phases out docker from SCALE and we now move in with containerd. Following are some notable changes which have been introduced: NVIDIA gpu support has been added but now app devs need to u...

github.com

NAS-109044 / 23.10 / Remove docker from build by sonicaj · Pull Request #370 · truenas/scale-build

github.com

NAS-109044 / 23.10 / Remove docker from build by sonicaj · Pull Request #370 · truenas/scale-build

github.com

They clearly show docker being removed given that K3S interacts directly with conainterd. I also know that the argument of enterprise requirements favours orchestration of containers (I have yet to see an enterprise utilise a NAS as an application server, perhaps small to medium business but not enterprise).

Will IXSystems, enforce K3S or will I still have the option of not configuring it and manually installing docker/compose? I’m not asking for IXSystem
S to bake in a solution for Docker but for a way for me to do it myself that doesn’t break TrueNAS by removing K3S and installing Docker/Compose.

 

[sretalla]

If you want to use docker compose (for now), you can use the solution provided by TrueCharts (which I suggest you would then extend by making that first compose app portainer, then using portainer to launch further compose apps).

Know that the intent for SCALE is to allow SCALE-out... eventually arriving for apps too, meaning docker won't be enough and K3s will be needed (the reason why it started there already).

SCALE is intended to not necessarily be seen as a NAS only, but rather a part of hyper-converged infrastructure, so indeed companies may decide to run their apps on it, particularly with enterprise support from iX.

Also know that docker as the container engine in SCALE is on its way out as you have correctly identified.

If you want to dedicate the resources of the machine to docker, run a VM and do what you want in there with docker (or just run a bare-metal docker host).

If you remove system components from SCALE and/or add some, plan to be interrupted by each update to the system. Things will break. It will be messy.

 

[naderelos]

Thank you for the response, much appreciated.

If I may ask for some clarification. Currently, when installed TrueNAS scale, I choose not to enable/configure the applications subsystem and therefore K3S. This made installing docker/compose straight forward.

Is it iX’s intention to enable by default and preconfigure K3S in the future, or is it always going to be a thing we enable at installation time. The later would be something I would find as an adequate option to allow me to do as I wish with docker.

As a side note, does anyone not see the irony of running a VM to host docker? Docker was invented to address the short comings of VMs ;-)

Docker in docker is a bag of hurt that I’m not prepared to live with when it comes to networking and especially with reverse proxies. Not when I currently have the option of running it directly on docker. If I must do this in the future, then I guess I’ll look at options now.

 

[sretalla]

If all you want is a Linux host with docker and ZFS on it, run Ubuntu.

If you want to work with the appliance that is intended for a bunch of other things than you want, then work with it (making feature requests if you feel the need).

I can already see SCALE is not for you.

Electing not to use the apps feature indeed doesn't launch K3s and you can manually start docker and mess with it on your own... for now... until docker isn't there.

 

[Arwen]

As I have said in other threads on this forum, "TrueNAS is not the NAS to rule them all". And now a new one, "TrueNAS SCALE is not the Container OS to rule them all".

Yes, it might seem like you can shoe horn SCALE into doing what you want now. It is just than TrueNAS, Core or SCALE, is an appliance and not intended for all purposes or manual changes at the OS level.

But, you can do what you want, as long as you want. Good luck.

 

[naderelos]

If all you want is a Linux host with docker and ZFS on it, run Ubuntu.

If you want to work with the appliance that is intended for a bunch of other things than you want, then work with it (making feature requests if you feel the need).

I can already see SCALE is not for you.

Electing not to use the apps feature indeed doesn't launch K3s and you can manually start docker and mess with it on your own... for now... until docker isn't there.

You have no idea what all my requirements are to make the statement that “You can already see that TrueNAS is not for me”.
.

 

[naderelos]

As I have said in other threads on this forum, "TrueNAS is not the NAS to rule them all". And now a new one, "TrueNAS SCALE is not the Container OS to rule them all".

Yes, it might seem like you can shoe horn SCALE into doing what you want now. It is just than TrueNAS, Core or SCALE, is an appliance and not intended for all purposes or manual changes at the OS level.

But, you can do what you want, as long as you want. Good luck.

Not the question I asked.

 

[Etorix]

You have no idea what all my requirements are to make the statement that “You can already see that TrueNAS is not for me”.
.

Fair comment, but you have not exposed your requirements.

For what it's worth, OpenMediaVault is a Linux-based NAS OS which can install (apparently native) docker.

 

[sretalla]

You have no idea what all my requirements are to make the statement that “You can already see that TrueNAS is not for me”.

Well, I feel the need to respond, since I've been accused of trolling.

My comment was based on your insistence to need docker compose and the fact that it soon won't be possible on the SCALE platform.

If there are other drivers more important to you than that (which you haven't yet exposed), then I have indeed made a call which could be incorrect.

I hope no harm was done if that's the case.

I'm happy to continue the discussion if you have more to ask/share.

 

[ChrisRJ]

Not the question I asked.

Given that this is a forum where people are willing to help others in their free time, as opposed to paid enterprise support, I think a response like that is not helpful. If you had paid for it, that would be different. But why do you feel the need to brush off people who only want to help?

 

[naderelos]

Given that this is a forum where people are willing to help others in their free time, as opposed to paid enterprise support, I think a response like that is not helpful. If you had paid for it, that would be different. But why do you feel the need to brush off people who only want to help?

Rather than go down this tangent, read my clarification question.

 

[naderelos]

Well, I feel the need to respond, since I've been accused of trolling.

My comment was based on your insistence to need docker compose and the fact that it soon won't be possible on the SCALE platform.

If there are other drivers more important to you than that (which you haven't yet exposed), then I have indeed made a call which could be incorrect.

I hope no harm was done if that's the case.

I'm happy to continue the discussion if you have more to ask/share.

I’ll pose the question again in the hopes I get an answer.

Will K3S be enabled by default in the future and preconfigured?

I don’t expect iX, to produce solutions for my requirements nor did I ask them too.

 

[sretalla]

Will K3S be enabled by default in the future and preconfigured?

I don't think it will as the Apps structure is "optional".

Installing docker/compose (or any component not in the appliance) yourself on the host will soon be unsupported.

 

[naderelos]

I don't think it will as the Apps structure is "optional".

Installing docker/compose (or any component not in the appliance) yourself on the host will soon be unsupported.

Thanks, that was the answer I was looking for.

 

[Jip-Hop]

I don't know if you've seen it already, but I've found a more future proof method of running docker on SCALE with good performance. I run docker in a persistent Linux 'jail' using the already included systemd-nspawn. I think you'll like it.

 

[naderelos]

I don't know if you've seen it already, but I've found a more future proof method of running docker on SCALE with good performance. I run docker in a persistent Linux 'jail' using the already included systemd-nspawn. I think you'll like it.

Yeah, I did and have been following it closely. Thanks though for posting.

 

[sfatula]

Will a docker build container still run in v23? Not clear on how that works, but seems like it?

 

[naderelos]

There will be no docker in v23, it will be all through K3S.

The product is called TrueNAS and yet the expectation is that enterprises will “scale” out their app server infra on TrueNAS using K3S. Time will tell if this actually is embraced.

 

[sfatula]

Ok, thanks. Kubernetes itself seems to still support docker build containers via containerd so thought scale might also. Speaking of using docker build on another machine and uploading.

Updated: Dockershim Removal FAQ

This supersedes the original Dockershim Deprecation FAQ article, published in late 2020. The article includes updates from the v1.24 release of Kubernetes. This document goes over some frequently asked questions regarding the removal of dockershim from Kubernetes. The removal was originally...

kubernetes.io

 

[MisterE2002]

Maybe a stupid question. But i now use "docker load < tarfile.tar" for my custom images. Will this still work in the future?

I do not really understand the inner engine stuff but i "docker build" them on my laptop and import them on the NAS.