Intel vs AMD (and form factor)

[demon]

PS. There are less expensive processors that will work with the board I suggested.

Certainly, he could probably get by pretty well with an appropriate generation Pentium or i3 CPU, though I think ECC support with i3s (and maybe Pentiums?) in the Sandy/Ivy Bridge gen was kind of a shitshow.

Edit: Looks like the Pentium G2030 can be had on eBay for US$10-20 each, and Intel Ark says it supports ECC, so...
Edit 2: Also, the G2130 (which clocks 200 MHz faster and adds DDR3-1600 support) can be had for not much more.

 

[Octopuss]

That's a LOT of stuff to think about.
Depending on how soon and how much for will I manage to sell this Synology brick (DS716+II - I bought a high end one noone is interested in now, heh), I might just wait a little and get something based on socket 1151 for future proofing. That Pentium G4600 looks really nice for what I would do with the NAS.

What is the benefit of SAS controllers in this context?

 

[Chris Moore]

What is the benefit of SAS controllers in this context?

Two things. It is higher quality than SATA while still allowing you to use SATA drives. Also, it allows for up to eight drives directly connected with up to 256 drives by way of SAS expander controllers. I use a SAS controller in my home server to run 32 drives with space for more and I could expand further if I bought another drive enclosure.

 

[demon]

What is the benefit of SAS controllers in this context?

Lots of storage ports, with fast reliable connectivity, which allows you to keep the onboard SATA ports for boot media. That said, if you're only going to have 4 drives, you'd probably do fine with the chipset SATA ports (never use PCIe attached cheap SATA controllers or non-chipset SATA ports via some cheap-and-cheesy third-party SATA controller integrated into a board, they always suck badly). Worst case, if you need more storage later, you can always add a SAS controller and SAS fanout cables, and FreeNAS won't care if you move the storage drives to a SAS HBA - as long as it's one that is well supported.

 

[demon]

I might just wait a little and get something based on socket 1151 for future proofing.

FYI, unfortunately that won't be as "future proof" as you might like. The newer CoffeeLake CPUs require new boards with the same LGA1151/H4 socket, but a new, different chipset, so those CPUs will not work with the C23x-based boards. I didn't suggest any of them because the SuperMicro boards for those new CPUs are borderline impossible to find - even if you're in the US, so I figured if I can't find them for sale, you wouldn't either.

Edit: Of course, you could go to a Kaby Lake i3/Xeon E3 later and those would be a viable upgrade path, I just don't want you to get ideas about newer CPUs working too.

 

[Octopuss]

If there's potential performance gain for low price, by all means, I'm in.
What could I possibly gain by using SAS controller over using the onboard ports then?

As for other hardware btw, I have pair of 4TB WD Reds, and I will most likely put it all in Bitfenix case.

FYI, unfortunately that won't be as "future proof" as you might like. The newer CoffeeLake CPUs require new boards with the same LGA1151/H4 socket, but a new, different chipset, so those CPUs will not work with the C23x-based boards. I didn't suggest any of them because the SuperMicro boards for those new CPUs are borderline impossible to find - even if you're in the US, so I figured if I can't find them for sale, you wouldn't either.

Edit: Of course, you could go to a Kaby Lake i3/Xeon E3 later and those would be a viable upgrade path, I just don't want you to get ideas about newer CPUs working too.

That's exactly what I meant. There are always beefier CPUs with more cores available 2nd hand, and that would work just fine.
Yup, I am aware (you've just reminded me, I did read about it before) of what Intel did to pointlessly force customers into changing everything yet again. Really, if I didn't read about FreeNAS not being friends with AMD, I'd be researching that option right away.

P.S. I even had this idea of changing the machine into a VM running FreeNAS and pfSense later on if I upgrade the CPU, and I could toss my current router away and save on a bit of cable mess and stuff then.

 

[demon]

If there's potential performance gain for low price, by all means, I'm in.

For the small number of drives you'd be looking at, I don't think there'd be a notable performance benefit. The Intel chipset SATA ports can support the full 3 Gbps (or 6 Gbps for SATA3 ports) pretty handily. The main concern is a) if you have lots of drives, making sure you can boot from a mobo SATA port, and b) avoiding lousy non-chipset SATA controllers, though c) the option for SAS expanders as @Chris Moore mentioned is also nice. But I think for the moment, you could keep that as a later/nice to have upgrade, rather than a must-have.

That's exactly what I meant. There are always beefier CPUs with more cores available 2nd hand, and that would work just fine.

And if you're willing to dip into eBay anyway, there are still Sandy/Ivy Bridge and Haswell/Haswell-R Core i3s and Xeon E3s that could slot into those older boards too. So there are options for those as well, you don't necessarily have to move to the X11 boards to have an upgrade path. (For example, if you went with the X10 board, the E3 1231v3, which I have in my main NAS (see signature), would be a perfect potential upgrade - 3.4 GHz, 4 cores, 8 threads, 8 MB L3 cache.) You've got options.

P.S. I even had this idea of changing the machine into a VM running FreeNAS and pfSense later on if I upgrade the CPU, and I could toss my current router away and save on a bit of cable mess and stuff then.

If you were going to do FreeNAS in a VM (which I'm less sure about, I have no experience with that, last time I heard the two in the same breath the recommendation was "don't do that"), you'd want to have a SAS board and to passthough the PCI device into the VM. Beyond that, I don't really know anything about that, but I don't know that I'd attempt it myself.

 

[Chris Moore]

Shipping would be a bit on the high side, but you could get a case like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SuperMicro...s-NR40700-Emac-MTW-5820V-P-S-NEW/163444574100

 

[Octopuss]

Damn, what would I do with a behemoth like that? :D
The NAS will sit "hidden in plain sight" inside a cabinet the TV sits on. Aesthetics!
Looks like Pentium G4400/G4600 it is. Finding a soc1151 board for the right price will be a little challenging, but something will eventually pop up on Ebay I'm sure.
Memory and PSU I can get dirt cheap used anywhere locally.

 

[Octopuss]

Oh btw, buffered, unbuffered, registered or what kind of ECC memory do I actually need? Does it even matter as long as it's ECC?

 

[demon]

Oh btw, buffered, unbuffered, registered or what kind of ECC memory do I actually need? Does it even matter as long as it's ECC?

Unbuffered, for sure. Unless the board clearly says it support registered DIMMs, it pretty much guaranteed doesn't. As I mentioned, you should try to stick to the board vendor's memory QVL - non-verified DIMMs aren't guaranteed to work.

 

[Octopuss]

Hm, I don't actually need to be looking specifically at Supermicro boards, do I?
How about something consumer-looking instead, like https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-X170-WS-ECC-rev-10 ?

 

[demon]

That's a gaming board, with an X170 chipset. I don't know how well FreeNAS will like that, plus you'll have audio and a bunch of other power-wasting nonsense on it. I can't say that it won't work - but it wouldn't be my first choice. Also, you'll have to have a monitor and keyboard to connect to it. The SuperMicro boards I referenced all have integrated IPMI, so you can console in from any desktop computer with a web browser and Java. IPMI is absolutely worth the price of admission.

Again, you're an adult, you can make your own decisions - but knowing what I know, I would opt for a server board from SuperMicro or ASRock Rack, not a gaming board.

Edit: I also checked the SuperMicro site for the X9SCM-F @Chris Moore referenced; it also has IPMI.

 

[Octopuss]

The SuperMicro boards I referenced all have integrated IPMI, so you can console in from any desktop computer with a web browser and Java. IPMI is absolutely worth the price of admission.

Oh, ok. I know absolutely nothing about this, but what you say makes perfect sense. I'll keep on reading.
So much new stuff in one day

 

[Chris Moore]

Oh, ok. I know absolutely nothing about this, but what you say makes perfect sense. I'll keep on reading.
So much new stuff in one day

Here is a demo video I made regarding IPMI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPv_ikws7A0&t

 

[LimeCrusher]

A few thoughts upon reading your post and the exchanges:

I might start buiding a NAS as a replacement for Synology box I am in the process of getting rid of, and I am trying to figure out the hardware basics.
Primarily, Intel vs AMD.
A mini-ITX motherboard with integrated Celeron J4105 doesn't cost much, and the CPU is supposedly perfectly capable of driving a home NAS even with some extra apps running on it. It is soldered to the MB though, so no way to upgrade.

I thought about doing something like that, i.e replicating a Synology DS918+. It turns out you can do it from new parts for about 300€. BUT:

• You can find motherboards with the exact same Celeron, but they're cheap customer's motherboard for desktop use. Certainly not the most appropriate hardware to build a reliable NAS.
• No ECC support of course which is recommended for FreeNAS.
• If you go as cheap as possible and can't put 8GB of RAM (minimum for FreeNAS), you're left with OpenMediaVault or Xpenology. They're probably ok, I don't know about them but you'll never (or unlikely) deploy ZFS of course.
• You don't have the Synology software to take advantage of Intel QSV to transcode video files (I assume they use QSV and don't know if Xpenology does it).

So is it really a good idea at the end of the day? I would not go down this path.

Looks like Pentium G4400/G4600 it is.

For Kaby Lake (G4600), the G4560 might be easier to find. The G4400 Skylake is perfectly fine though. Check their Passmark scores. They all support ECC.

Finding a soc1151 board for the right price will be a little challenging, but something will eventually pop up on Ebay I'm sure.

Everything @Chris Moore links you on Ebay is gold. Check them out, read their specs, browse the manufacturer product lines and try to figure out what this hardware is and why he recommends it for a FreeNAS build. I've learned a lot from this.
It is possible that buying it and shipping from the US to where you live (Czech Republic right?) ends up not being interesting economically (it's my case in France at least). Check if you can find those same parts in Europe or in your country, you may have some surprise. The Supermicro X9 boards and their associated Xeon are a little old and should be available second-hand at good prices.

Memory and PSU I can get dirt cheap used anywhere locally.

You can test used memory with memtest86+. Don't go too dirtily cheap on the PSU though ... it's kind of an important piece of a machine.

 

[Octopuss]

A few thoughts upon reading your post and the exchanges:

I thought about doing something like that, i.e replicating a Synology DS918+. It turns out you can do it from new parts for about 300€. BUT:

• You can find motherboards with the exact same Celeron, but they're cheap customer's motherboard for desktop use. Certainly not the most appropriate hardware to build a reliable NAS.
• No ECC support of course which is recommended for FreeNAS.
• If you go as cheap as possible and can't put 8GB of RAM (minimum for FreeNAS), you're left with OpenMediaVault or Xpenology. They're probably ok, I don't know about them but you'll never (or unlikely) deploy ZFS of course.
• You don't have the Synology software to take advantage of Intel QSV to transcode video files (I assume they use QSV and don't know if Xpenology does it).

So is it really a good idea at the end of the day? I would not go down this path.

I am still not entirely sure what transcoding is to be honest. I understand what it supposedly does, but I have no idea if either my NAS or the TV is doing it and when.
I ditched this idea anyway though. It's a shame, but if it wouldn't work too well with FreeNAS, what can I do. And since it's apparently the best software out there, I am not interested in scouting for alternatives.

For Kaby Lake (G4600), the G4560 might be easier to find. The G4400 Skylake is perfectly fine though. Check their Passmark scores. They all support ECC.

Now THAT looks interesting. Only 100MHz slower and significantly cheaper, even new (over here at least).

Everything @Chris Moore links you on Ebay is gold. Check them out, read their specs, browse the manufacturer product lines and try to figure out what this hardware is and why he recommends it for a FreeNAS build. I've learned a lot from this.
It is possible that buying it and shipping from the US to where you live (Czech Republic right?) ends up not being interesting economically (it's my case in France at least). Check if you can find those same parts in Europe or in your country, you may have some surprise. The Supermicro X9 boards and their associated Xeon are a little old and should be available second-hand at good prices.

Yes, the shipping is a bitch, and on top of that it seems like there are no used boards available either. All of the Supermicro boards I found on Ebay were brand new, which sucks (and I kind of settled on X11SSM-F, which is not exactly super old too, but I just don't feel like old sockets).
edit: Noone seems to be selling any of this used over here. It's not like Ebay is full of it either. I guess people are holding onto the server hardware for a LONG time before they let it go.

 

[Chris Moore]

I guess people are holding onto the server hardware for a LONG time before they let it go.

Typical use of a server in the enterprise is three years on the low side. Where I work, we have systems that run for five and six years before we have any need to replace them. Servers are not like gaming systems where you are buying a new system every couple years to squeeze out a higher frame rate in what ever the latest game is. Servers are more like freight trucks that run for a decade before they are retired.

 

[Octopuss]

These motherboards we are talking about here are not even server, more like workstation, so I presume people use them for even longer.
Oh and btw, I looked at the Asrock boards, and they are even more expensive and rare than Supermicro :(

 

[Octopuss]

When I looked at local offerings, I noticed the eshops were selling weird model numbers.
I am interested in Supermicro X11SSM-F, and that's exactly what SM have on the web.
What I found over here though, is MBD-X11SSM-F-O and MBD-X11SSM-F-B. What the heck is that?