input for my use case

[Bermuda_Tetrahedron]

hi

replacing my 2 bay synology with truenas and before i commit i would be interested what others would do in my case.
disclaimer: i have read the hardware recommendations, i basically have no budget and have to work with what i have. so recommending to buy anything is no use here, except the boot drive options. and apologies in advance for things i might ask where RTFM would apply.

hardware i got

fujitsu celsius w510
e3 1230
16gb ecc
6 sata ports
2x8TB
4x4TB (maybe 6x4TB)
1Gbit LAN

for raid levels i will only use mirrors.

the e3 1230 has no iGPU, in an other pc i have a e3 1245 with iGPU, 1230 is 80w tdp and 1245 is 95w tdp, what needs more power 1230+dedicated gpu or 1245? (yes i know depends on the gpu, assume a low tdp one or define the tdp limit)

core or scale
i'm leaning towards core but still a bit unsure, but here is what i know. i don't need docker. VMs would be nice but with the cpu i have and 16gb ram i don't think i will have any VMs running. hardware minimum for core is 16gb ram and scale 8gb but i don't think for my case this is relevant. and as i understand core is truly open source and scale has proprietary parts is this correct ? so yeah i think i lean very strong towards core.

boot drive
if i use a sata ssd i lose a sata port. i could buy a cheap m2 ssd and pcie adapter which would be around 50$. according to the community hardware guide, sata controllers are not recommended. is there anything usable around the same price as m2+pcie adapter ?
the board has only 2 sata3 ports, but with spinning disks and 1Gbit lan this doesn't matter anyways ?!

besides the synology nas, i have a raid1 in my pc (which i will move to truenas when its running), and made backups with acronis true image to an other disk. this should work with a truenas smb share too right? instead of the source being the raid1 i'll go "files and folders" in acronis and chose the truenas smb folder.
my backup disks are connected via a usb "toaster"
or are there better backup options directly in truenas? not cloud based etc, but the same as i used for raid1, for example backup a 4tb raid 1 to a 4tb disk in the toaster.
i have no option for automated backups etc...

maybe if forgot some things
thanks for reading ;P

 

[Redcoat]

Welcome to the forums!

For what do you wish to use your TrueNAS box? That will help the forum members make appropriate suggestions in answer to your questions, particulary Core VS Scale. IMHO, unless you are well-versed in Linux, I would go Core to start.

While you can run headless (don't need a GPU) are you saying that you are ready to swap cpus around?

Will the Synology NAS be available to use as your TrueNAS backup target?

What brought you to the conclusion that you should use mirrors rather than a Raid Z1 (not preferred, I would say) or a RaidZ2?

 

[Bermuda_Tetrahedron]

Welcome to the forums!

thanks!

For what do you wish to use your TrueNAS box? That will help the forum members make appropriate suggestions in answer to your questions, particulary Core VS Scale. IMHO, unless you are well-versed in Linux, I would go Core to start.

storage, for active use and as replacement for the synology nas and the raid1 in my pc. the stuff coming from the synologu nas will also serve jellyfin running on my router. and the stuff that's currently on the raid1 is my important data, the most demanding stuff on there i assume are the up to 2-5gb photoshop files.

While you can run headless (don't need a GPU) are you saying that you are ready to swap cpus around?

sure if it makes sense, but i'm also ready to not swap them ^^ or pull the gpu out after setup and install if needed.

Will the Synology NAS be available to use as your TrueNAS backup target?

unlikely. i'm not looking for a always running backup solution, unless i had enough storage to backup everything, but that's way out of my budget.

What brought you to the conclusion that you should use mirrors rather than a Raid Z1 (not preferred, I would say) or a RaidZ2?

raidZ1 i would never use. and for raidZ2 i don't have the drives imho. the larger volume would also destroy my backup plans. a 4tb mirror i can backup to a 4tb drive. backing up the 8tb mirror will already be a problem since i don't have a 3rd 8tb drive.

 

[Bermuda_Tetrahedron]

since i'm not qualified to edit a post, something i forgot

unless you are well-versed in Linux, I would go Core to start.

i use debian since debain 4, going by that, scale would make sense. but i never used freebsd and i like the idea running something on bsd.

 

[Redcoat]

i use debian since debain 4, going by that, scale would make sense. but i never used freebsd and i like the idea running something on bsd.

Sounds good to me - Core is my poison and I haven't sipped Scale yet pat loading it in a VM.

sure if it makes sense, but i'm also ready to not swap them ^^ or pull the gpu out after setup and install if needed.

Then I would probably suggest installing a CPU with GPU initially until any installation vagaries are over with and you have a chance to manage your new server from the GUI on a network machine (the same expereince as running headless) at which time you can consider disconnecting your monitot and pulling the GPU. As you are prepping for all that I suggest that you get a copy of WinSCP on your windows box to facilitate file management on the server.

It's good to see that you have "BACKUP" clearly in focus, though not a very strong solution for it on the table so far. So it seems you'll have 1 by 8TB mirror vdev and 2 by 4TB mirror vdevs to put into one or more pools.

Backup to a USB drive(s) is possible.

You will also have the use of local snapshots, but of course they'll only be good for recovery of data on a running system, not a disaster recovery of a full failure.

Keep us appraised of your thinking process as your project matures - there's lots of experience here on the forums to assist you, especially as you're obvioulsy "doing your homework".

Good luck!

 

[ChrisRJ]

About the CPUs: The TDP, unless the CPU is really old, says nothing about power consumption, esp. when idle. It is simply the maximum amount of heat it can create under full load.

Yours seem to be Sandy Bridge, which should be ok, if I compare with my TrueNAS, which has the same generation (E5 1620). But perhaps someone else can confirm this ...

 

[Redcoat]

is there anything usable around the same price as m2+pcie adapter ?

I forgot the boot drive question.

Yes, do not consider a "SATA port multiplier".

Perhaps you should consider adding an HBA for extra SATA ports - many here (me included) have been very happy with purchases from Art of Server - see his HBA section at https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ssn=theartofserver&store_cat=23844485012&store_name=theartofserver

You'll see both one port and two port cards there (4 drives per port with forward breakout cable) already flashed to IT mode for TrueNAS.

 

[Arwen]

@Bermuda_Tetrahedron

I wrote a forum Resource on local disk backups. It's not perfect, (but it works PERFECT for ME). You can use it as a starting point.
TrueNAS Forums - Resources - How to: Backup to local disks


One interesting result of using 4 disks, is that you can get the same amount of storage using 2, 2 way Mirrors or 4 disk RAID-Z2, (similar to RAID-6). Their are 2 disks dedicated to redundancy.

However, their are differences. With RAID-Z2 you can loose any 2 disks and not loose any data. But, in the Mirror case, you can loose 2 disks, as long as they are not in the same 2 way Mirror.

That said, 2, 2 way Mirrors do have more IOPS because it's 2 separate vDevs in ZFS. A Virtual Device, (aka vDev), acts like a single storage device, (at the slowest speed of a member device). So, you only get the IOPS of the slowest disk in a 4 disk RAID-Z2.

 

[Bermuda_Tetrahedron]

Then I would probably suggest installing a CPU with GPU initially until any installation vagaries are over with and you have a chance to manage your new server from the GUI on a network machine (the same expereince as running headless) at which time you can consider disconnecting your monitot and pulling the GPU. As you are prepping for all that I suggest that you get a copy of WinSCP on your windows box to facilitate file management on the server.

since the low tdp gpu i have did not work it looks like i'm pulling the one that's connected.

It's good to see that you have "BACKUP" clearly in focus, though not a very strong solution for it on the table so far. So it seems you'll have 1 by 8TB mirror vdev and 2 by 4TB mirror vdevs to put into one or more pools.

Backup to a USB drive(s) is possible.

You will also have the use of local snapshots, but of course they'll only be good for recovery of data on a running system, not a disaster recovery of a full failure.

yeah a good backup plan is expensive xD yeah definitely have to look into backup solutions.

Good luck!

[REDACTED] thanks was what i meant to say..^^

About the CPUs: The TDP, unless the CPU is really old, says nothing about power consumption, esp. when idle. It is simply the maximum amount of heat it can create under full load.

yes but without measurements it's a spec you can look at keeping in mind what you said.

Yes, do not consider a "SATA port multiplier".

Perhaps you should consider adding an HBA for extra SATA ports - many here (me included) have been very happy with purchases from Art of Server - see his HBA section at https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ssn=theartofserver&store_cat=23844485012&store_name=theartofserver

You'll see both one port and two port cards there (4 drives per port with forward breakout cable) already flashed to IT mode for TrueNAS.

yes i expected this, getting an HBA would cost me ~100$ with shipping + cables, so it looks like to have 6 sata ports the m2+pcie card is gonna be the cheapest.

I wrote a forum Resource on local disk backups. It's not perfect, (but it works PERFECT for ME). You can use it as a starting point.
TrueNAS Forums - Resources - How to: Backup to local disks

cool thanks, will have a look at this. i tested it with acronis. installed truenas, created a pool with my old 1.5tb disks and restored the acronis backup to it. 1Gbit was definitely the bottleneck... so making a backup that's connected directly would be great.

One interesting result of using 4 disks, is that you can get the same amount of storage using 2, 2 way Mirrors or 4 disk RAID-Z2, (similar to RAID-6). Their are 2 disks dedicated to redundancy.

However, their are differences. With RAID-Z2 you can loose any 2 disks and not loose any data. But, in the Mirror case, you can loose 2 disks, as long as they are not in the same 2 way Mirror.

That said, 2, 2 way Mirrors do have more IOPS because it's 2 separate vDevs in ZFS. A Virtual Device, (aka vDev), acts like a single storage device, (at the slowest speed of a member device). So, you only get the IOPS of the slowest disk in a 4 disk RAID-Z2.

only my 8tb drives are nas/datacenter drives. and my 4tb drives are wd green/blue (cmr) and don't worry i know, if i had cash i would not use them... but i used wd greens in the synology nas and as raid1 in my pc for a long time. for mirroring it's ok for me, but i would not use non-mirror raid levels with non-nas disks.
and again, having a 4x4tb raidZ2 would require a 8tb backup disk, and i don't even have a 8tb backup disk for the 8tb mirror. but i have 2 4tb disks to backup 2 4tb mirrors.

 

[Arwen]

Uh, if you create a single pool of 2 vDevs of 2 way Mirrors of 4TB disks, it's 8TB total.

So I would guess you planned on 3, 2 way Mirrored pools:

• 2 x 8TB
• 2 x 4TB
• 2 x 4TB

There are tricks you can do with ZFS. For example, if you created a 4 x 4TB disk RAID-Z2, and then 2 datasets in that pool, you would have 8TB total. BUT, you can limit and reserve space such that each dataset is only 4TB usable.

Thus, you can limit your backups to one dataset, which would fit in a 4TB backup disk.


ZFS does a quite a few things different than other file systems. Some not so perfect. Others ground shattering.

 

[Bermuda_Tetrahedron]

So I would guess you planned on 3, 2 way Mirrored pools:

• 2 x 8TB
• 2 x 4TB
• 2 x 4TB

exactly.
except maybe one more 2 x 4TB pool if i get at some point access to more sata ports

There are tricks you can do with ZFS. For example, if you created a 4 x 4TB disk RAID-Z2, and then 2 datasets in that pool, you would have 8TB total. BUT, you can limit and reserve space such that each dataset is only 4TB usable.

Thus, you can limit your backups to one dataset, which would fit in a 4TB backup disk.


ZFS does a quite a few things different than other file systems. Some not so perfect. Others ground shattering.

if i had 4tb nas or enterprise drives i would probably consider this.

back to sata controllers, to not use them for the pools makes sense, but how about using it for the boot drive? would be cheaper than m2+pcie card.

and something different, all those 4tb pairs where running in raid1 and have about the same powered on hours.
2x wd green @ ~27k hours
2x wd green @ ~3k hours
2x wd green @ 20-25k hours
2x wd blue @ ~2k hours

the blue pair and 1 green pair will be used for the mirrored pools, 1 pair for backups, and the last pair will be cold spares while not used because of the lack of sata ports.

i wont mix the blues with greens, but should i pair them as they where, or should i mix some low hour with high hour drives? or use only the low hour drives for the pools and the high hour drives for backup and cold spare/eventual 3rd 2 x 4TB pool

 

[Etorix]

the e3 1230 has no iGPU, in an other pc i have a e3 1245 with iGPU, 1230 is 80w tdp and 1245 is 95w tdp, what needs more power 1230+dedicated gpu or 1245? (yes i know depends on the gpu, assume a low tdp one or define the tdp limit)

TDP is irrelevant, as a NAS mostly idles. A GPU is only useful to install. Once set up, it's headless.

core or scale
i'm leaning towards core but still a bit unsure, but here is what i know. i don't need docker.

This strongly points to CORE. BTW, you can have VMs with CORE—but more RAM would help.

is there anything usable around the same price as m2+pcie adapter ?

A cheap M.2 NVMe drive in a PCIe slot adapter… if this old PC can boot from NVMe.
Otherwise a SATA SSD in a USB->SATA adapter may be used as boot drive (not for data).

 

[Bermuda_Tetrahedron]

This strongly points to CORE. BTW, you can have VMs with CORE—but more RAM would help.

yes, but i don't think i will be running VMs.

A cheap M.2 NVMe drive in a PCIe slot adapter… if this old PC can boot from NVMe.
Otherwise a SATA SSD in a USB->SATA adapter may be used as boot drive (not for data).

i think i would buy a M2 with sata interface, this should be less of a problem than NVMe right?

 

[Arwen]

Understood.

You may have missed the benefit from using a 4 disk RAID-Z2. It would not mater if any 2 disks failed, data would still be available from either 4TB dataset. Meaning this works better BECAUSE you are not using NAS or Enterprise disks.

 

[Bermuda_Tetrahedron]

yeah i got that with 2 disks failing ; )

ok looks like m2 sata is no option, no pcie adapters available at my location with support for sata which has a sata controller which means i could just use a regular sata controller i guess.
the usb->sata option would require a pcie card for usb3 (which i have)
or sata controller if ok to be used just for boot drive

oooor, i just saw there are sata extension like those link available locally.
with those i could use my HP proliant 380 g6, 2xE5540, 48gb ram
but because of 2.5" caddys i would have to mount the drives on top of the server which is kind ok jank but whatever
and would consume more power and somewhere on these forums i've read we should not go for older than sandy bridge...

 

[NugentS]

USB to M.2 (be-it SATA to NVME) is very doable. Example below. Just make sure you get the right type for the M.2 stick you may be considering. Below is just an example

Amazon.co.uk

 

[ChrisRJ]

with those i could use my HP proliant 380 g6, 2xE5540, 48gb ram

Those CPUs are a bit too old in terms of reasonable power consumption. Sandy Bridge or newer should be ok, though.

 

[Bermuda_Tetrahedron]

i went with usb to sata aaaand away we go...
thanks for your input everyone.