freenas without ecc memory. home server / company file backup

[ssmokeyy]

Really I just need to know will freenas work stable with out ecc memory? my asus x99 deluxe 2 does not support ecc memory. I have the highest rated corsair dom platinum kit in the system. I know that ecc memory has an extra chip on the board but again it won't work. I read some forums and people make it sound like its 100% your nas is going to fail without it. Is that true or can non ecc builds last?

 

[seanm]

You don't *need* ECC. It's better, sure, but not required.

 

[Jailer]

Can you do it? Yes. Should you do it? NO!

Your title says company back up. In no way should you be doing anything that could knowingly compromise any sensitive data.

 

[HoneyBadger]

How much money/time/reputation would be lost if those "company backups" turned out to be corrupt, right when you needed them most?

Eg: The company was hit with a ransomware attack, you're totally shut down unless you pay them a million bucks in Bitcoins. No worries, you have backups, right? Oops, they're corrupted. Hope you didn't delete the encrypted files already, and you didn't decide to "restore in place" because now your only option is "pay up."

What is the cost - in time lost, in dollars of revenue, or in employment?

 

[melloa]

its 100% your nas is going to fail without it.

No, not the NAS, but the data could.

Your title says company back up. In no way should you be doing anything that could knowingly compromise any sensitive data.

Ditto

What is the cost - in time lost, in dollars of revenue, or in employment?

Ditto, again.

 

[SweetAndLow]

Wow this thread is full of incorrect information. Ecc and data corruption on disk are not related. This is a myth and I'm disappointed in seeing veteran forum members believing it.

Ecc will give you better uptime and prevent random crashes. It is also standard in most hardware you should be using for a server. If your hardware doesn't support it is probably not good hardware for a server.

I don't post often anymore but this topic needed correction.

 

[HoneyBadger]

Once correct data is written to disk, in-memory errors will not impact it (because of the stored hashes) - but if data is hit by a bitflip while in memory before first write/being checksummed, ZFS will not know that it's flipped.

 

[SweetAndLow]

Once correct data is written to disk, in-memory errors will not impact it (because of the stored hashes) - but if data is hit by a bitflip while in memory before first write/being checksummed, ZFS will not know that it's flipped.

Yes it does, it will verify the checksum before being written to disk.

 

[AlexGG]

Yes it does, it will verify the checksum before being written to disk.

If the data is bitflipped before the checksum has been computed for the first time, there is nothing to verify the checksum against.

 

[SweetAndLow]

If the data is bitflipped before the checksum has been computed for the first time, there is nothing to verify the checksum against.

Then that single block would be corrupt and your system would have crashed long before that ever happens. And if the data came in over the network the network checksums would catch it before it gets written to disk.

Ecc ram is not that big of deal. Overall though the hardware that supports it will be so much better and that's what someone goal should be.

 

[HoneyBadger]

Yes it does, it will verify the checksum before being written to disk.

Only if you enable ZFS_DEBUG_MODIFY to checksum the data at rest in RAM.

Then that single block would be corrupt

Verify after write would catch this (and a backup that isn't verified/can't be restored is ultimately not a backup at all), but ECC RAM prevents a single-bit error from occurring (and logs it in your IPMI, most likely, warning you to replace the stick before it causes unscheduled downtime) and would prevent you from having to re-run the backup job.

and your system would have crashed long before that ever happens.

Not if the bitflip occurs only in a data block, which given ZFS's use of RAM is far more likely than the bitflip happening to hit the small amount of kernel/executable space.

And if the data came in over the network the network checksums would catch it before it gets written to disk.

Network checksums/retransmits only prevent corruption on the wire - once the data leaves the NIC, the network checksum is irrelevant. (You can also use network cards with ECC protected packet buffers for a bonus.)

Ecc ram is not that big of deal. Overall though the hardware that supports it will be so much better and that's what someone goal should be.

ECC RAM is not mandatory; but at the risk of an "appeal to authority" why don't we ask Matthew Ahrens:

There's nothing special about ZFS that requires/encourages the use of ECC RAM more so than any other filesystem. If you use UFS, EXT, NTFS, btrfs, etc without ECC RAM, you are just as much at risk as if you used ZFS without ECC RAM. Actually, ZFS can mitigate this risk to some degree if you enable the unsupported ZFS_DEBUG_MODIFY flag (zfs_flags=0x10). This will checksum the data while at rest in memory, and verify it before writing to disk, thus reducing the window of vulnerability from a memory error.

I would simply say: if you love your data, use ECC RAM. Additionally, use a filesystem that checksums your data, such as ZFS.

And in my opinion, a company file server/backup target is absolutely a scenario where you "love your data."

 

[G8One2]

Recommended hardware requirements have been discussed over and over. People are free to make their own decisions, just as we are free to say "told you so" when they lose all their data. Its not hard to search and see why specific hardware is recommended. People want to cheap out on their hardware at the expense of their data, go right ahead. No one is stopping you, but the warnings are all there for everyone to read.

 

[AlexGG]

Then that single block would be corrupt and your system would have crashed long before that ever happens.

I have seen cases when defective RAM effectively trashed the pool to the point where the pool no longer mounts. Apparently, system goes down with kernel panic, and then after reboot, and after memory is replaced, attempt to mount the pool still produces a kernel panic. So no, there is no effective protection against RAM problem trashing the pool. This also applies to disk controllers, there is no guarantee that the problem is detected in time to prevent major damage to the pool. Disk controllers do not have ECC option though, at least not typically.

 

[ssmokeyy]

These parts are not cheap. X99 board with i7-6850k isn't just something u run for fun. I understand what u guys are saying. MY business isn't some crazy mutli million dollar business. I do 200k a year and just have a file I move from my business to my house for the weekends so I can keep the books up to date and paper work done. I do not want to use a off the shelf nas at this point but spending another $260 bucks on 16 gb's of ecc plus find an x99 board that will run ecc puts the cost out of range. Would this setup be better for unraid? I want to use freenas i have learned how to use it and its easy to learn. I have tried many Linux setups and have run into problems many times with it.

 

[G8One2]

Hardware recommendations (read this first)

A new version is available in the Resources section of the forum. Or just click here. The old version will be unstickied after a while, but will still be available. If you want the FreeNAS Engineers official take on this subject then read this: http://www.freenas.org/hardware-requirements/...

www.ixsystems.com

 

[danb35]

The bottom line is, if you care about your data, you really should be using ECC. This isn't a FreeNAS thing, or a ZFS thing; there's nothing about either that makes the use of non-ECC RAM any more dangerous than it would be with any other OS or filesystem. With any OS, and any filesystem, using non-ECC RAM increases the risk of data corruption. Is it guaranteed? No, of course not--in all likelihood, you'll go many years without any issue. But it's still an additional risk that can be pretty easily avoided.

 

[Evertb1]

These parts are not cheap. X99 board with i7-6850k

I understand where you come from. I am not made of money either. And "throwing away" nice hardware seems to be such a waste. But realize that for less money then you paid for your current mobo and CPU you could have something that perfectly fits your needs.

I use my FreeNAS server and FreeNAS backup for work and for home. Both are outfitted with ECC memory. But that is not how it always has been. My backup server has been running with FreeNAS on consumer hardware for about 18 months. I have not encountered a single problem in that time. But having a better, more suitable system makes me sleep better. And it did not even cost me a lot. I bought a second hand Supermicro X10 motherboard for 75 euro's and it runs with a new Pentium cpu of just 65 euro's. And as backing up is the only task it performs I decided that 16 GB ECC memory was more then enough. Setting me back another 90 euro's. All the other stuff was already at hand.

At the end you are the only one who decides about the balance between costs and -for you- acceptable risks. I am working in the IT branch for over 25 years now. I am a developer of business oriented software. Mainly in the financial world. So I know about the importance of data. We always state that data is the only real capital of a company. If an application fails but the data is secure you can repair things. If the data is damaged or even totaly lost you are in deep, deep, trouble. Loosing some photo's of your family can be hardship, but loosing vital company data can be a real dissaster. Even (or especially) for small companies. Taking care of a solid backup solution is, in my eyes anyway, one of the most important things you can and must do for your company.

 

[HoneyBadger]

just have a file I move from my business to my house for the weekends so I can keep the books up to date and paper work done

Honestly, if this file is small enough, it seems like a solution that would be far better solved with a cloud-backed solution (Dropbox, etc) - selecting a provider with version control would also give you the ability to "roll back" if you noticed corruption or a missing entry. I don't know that you need a full NAS just for this.

If you intend to put a larger volume of "business" data on there then perhaps it could be revisited, but if the "business" requirement was stricken from your build, I don't think anyone would argue that ECC is "absolutely necessary" to store ripped DVDs and joining the data-hoarder lifestyle.