Battery Backup / UPS Recommendations

[rmccullough]

What specifically do I need to look for when adding a UPS? I would like to use it to power:

1. FreeNAS (see description for specs)
2. pfSense Router (Protectli FW4A, 18W max)
3. 8 port gigabit switch (3.5W)

What size should I be looking for? What brands/models tend to have better support by FreeNAS UPS service? I typically look for value when purchasing hardware like this. If there is a good deal on a used unit, I would be interested in that.

 

[joeschmuck]

While you have questions, I'm certain you can answer them once you answer these questions first...

1) How long do you want the UPS to power your hardware?
2) Are your devices going to be setup to power off upon power failure or wait until Low Battery?
3) You need to measure the current draw from your FreeNAS, you can speculate with 5 watts per hard drive and I'd add 300 watts to be conservative for the rest of the stuff.

All questions above relate to the capacity of the devices you plan to power. Add it up and then you have how many watts per hour. Lets say you have 380 watts (again I'm being generous I hope) and you know all UPS units are sold by Volt Amps (VA). Well take a look at the APC UPS website and fill in the blocks to come up with a good estimate. Lets take a look.

1) Under Total Load enter 380 Watts.
2) Under Extra Power for Future Expansion select 50% (this does not get you more runtime, it is a factor of if the UPS could create this many watts without tripping from an overcurrent condition.
3) Select your runtime and I entered 1 hour.
4) Select Submit.

You will notice that the smallest unit is a 750VA while the 1000VA unit is preferred. Notice the extra capacity and the quite long runtimes of each unit.

Now let me throw you for a loop, I have a CyberPower 1500VA UP on my main computer and it's pulling a 261 Watt load, my UPS is fully charged yet it tells me I only have 21 minutes of capacity remaining. Does this sound correct? Not really but I'm sure if I exercised my UPS and let the battery drain for about 15 minutes, the UPS circuitry would re-calibrate the readings.

I have an APC 1500VA UPS in my basement running two computers, a modem, router, and Wifi AP. This will run for at a minimum of 1 hour, I've tested it and it can last. My personal belief is that APC biulds a better UPS and uses better batteries.

One other thing, maybe you want a pure sinewave, well that typically costs more and I don't think it's needed for a simple home server. If I had something that really required a pure sinewave then I'd of course buy a product that supports it however I'm not running an AC motor (inductive loads) so I don't worry about it for a typical computer.

I hope my ramblings will help you out.

EDIT: I just ran a selftest on my CyberPower UPS and the running time jumped up to 63 minutes.

 

[danb35]

My personal belief is that APC biulds a better UPS and uses better batteries.

I haven't seen any evidence that they use anything other than the commodity SLA batteries that everyone else uses and are as common as dirt. As to the rest of the design and construction, I don't know one way or the other, but I recall @jgreco saying that some of their models had a habit of cooking the batteries.

As you point out, the first question with a UPS is how big it needs to be, and UPSs are generally marketed in a way that's useless in answering that question. Like you, I'm interested in runtime. I have a 3 kVA UPS (with additional battery pack) not because I need anything close to 3 kVA of peak capacity, but for the runtime. But you can't really get the runtime without also increasing the peak output, so here I am. Manufacturers may spec watt-hours for their units, but they hide that spec, and that's often the much more useful one.

@rmccullough, after capacity, the big question is going to be compatibility. The best information on that front is going to come from the nut HCL, though to overgeneralize, it looks like most stuff with a USB port works adequately. CyberPower seems to be reasonably well-supported and decently priced. I recall hearing good things about Eaton, though I don't have any experience with them myself. APC is kind of the "standard", though they use annoying proprietary cables for a lot of things (but if you get the right cable, it will probably work).

Since you're planning on running two different systems off this UPS, consider getting a networkable UPS. This will let each system talk directly to the UPS, rather than setting up one as the nut "master" and the other as a slave. Simpler configuration all around.

 

[jgreco]

We had dozens and dozens of the 1990's era "third gen" APC SmartUPS units. A certain percentage of them were "good." Guessing less than 50%. Of the bad ones, they had a lot of issues maintaining proper float voltages, and depending on the specific model, hardware, and firmware, might be correctable or might not be - some could be tweaked in software, some needed hardware mods, some were just unfixable. Some of them also had problems detecting bad battery situations. I tend to think that some of this was due to the relatively low processing power in the microcontrollers on these units, where the unit wasn't really able to look for trends and learn about the battery pack. We took to carefully tracking battery lifespan to help weed out the bad units.

The general symptom was that they'd cook a pack in a year or two. Or a unit that was reporting healthy battery after self-test would not be able to maintain load in a power failure.

Around 2010-2012 I started replacing actual units, in part because needs had changed with the advent of virtualization. The APC SMT and SMX units used technology acquired from another manufacturer, but use a proprietary communications technology ("microlink"). These can still be used with Network UPS Tools ("NUT") but you either need to get an AP9620 expansion card, or use a network card like the 9630 and then SNMP to communicate, but I've heard a few differing stories on how feasible this is with NUT. So far, we've replaced several battery packs around the 5 year mark, two were deformed but had been in alarm mode for a week while replacements were ordered, so I'll give the benefit of the doubt there. The SMX units do have the option to have external battery packs, and they do come in smallish sizes like the 750, but the downside is that you'd be paying premium prices for the capability. Overall, I am generally pleased with the SMT/SMX, but you'd have to puzzle out the NUT interface issue.

You're probably best off looking at the brands that interoperate with NUT natively.

 

[danb35]

FWIW, my APC9631 works just fine with nut.

 

[Elliot Dierksen]

I have a Smart-UPS 5000 RM DL4 that also appears to work fine with nut. Nut logs when the UPS goes on battery, and comes back. I haven't had the case where nut needed to shut down FreeNAS yet. Kind of happy about that!

Edit: I forgot to mention that nut is monitoring this UPS over the network to an AP9619 card in the unit.

 

[jgreco]

FWIW, my APC9631 works just fine with nut.

Apparently there isn't feature parity with the actual APC "Smart" serial protocol. I don't recall the details. I did play with this years ago on a 9630 or 9631 and found that SNMP seemed to support all the obvious functionality, but at the time NUT lacked the ability to cope with more complex systems:

and I don't recall all the details. They did finally add support for ATS's in ~2015-2016, maybe that will help.

 

[joeschmuck]

My APC Backups Pro BR1000G works with NUT as well. I'm not pushing APC on anyone, so far I prefer APC because of my own personal experience but I've branched out to CyberPower as well but mainly due to lower cost, and the CyberPower is running my main computer not my NAS, this allows me to evaluate it frequently whereas if it were on the NAS, I'd only see it whenever I go down to the basement to do something or during a power outage.

I haven't seen any evidence that they use anything other than the commodity SLA batteries that everyone else uses and are as common as dirt.

I really can't argue that point however some folks don't put in higher current capacity batteries and again, my personal experience is APC installs good quality/capacity batteries.

 

[jgreco]

APC installs batteries that are likely to get through the battery warranty period. They've varied in quality over the years, though. The biggest problem is that if you buy a UPS from someplace that doesn't sell lots of them, you can get batteries that have gone flat. SLA batteries need to be kept charged, and if they are allowed to drop below a certain voltage, they start to undergo irreversible damage and sulfation. They will slowly discharge on their own, and after about six months they can be in the danger range, so a UPS that is older than about four months is a bit of a risk. If you have to buy an old-stock APC UPS, you should find the oldest one that you can, so APC will have to replace the batteries, which they will cheerfully do.

 

[rmccullough]

All, I really appreciate the input here.

My initial thought was to run long enough to shut-down safely, but it may be more prudent to get something that will sustain the system running for a longer duration. I live in Montana and we do see power outages a couple times a year. Usually they are under a minute, but once every few years we get one that lasts longer.

So the main goal is to ensure my FreeNAS system is able to power down safely without losing data.

@danb35 good point about ethernet management, however it looks like that requires jumping up quite a bit in price (the management boards are ~$150 alone).

I feel like I would be better off getting a 1500VA UPS with USB management for FreeNAS, and then something like the Amazon Basics 600VA UPS for $50 to power everything else in my crawlspace. Even though it does not support any kind of management, it should be able to run the stuff down there for quite a while before going dead.

 

[joeschmuck]

Even though it does not support any kind of management

What are you looking for specifically? Odds are you can send out commands from FreeNAS to your other devices once FreeNAS detects the UPS is on bettery or whenever your threshold is to shut down FreeNAS, assuming Ethernet communications is what you are looking for. This is what I do for my systems in the basement. I have two ESXi servers of which both should be powered down properly in order to minimize data corruption. So I have FreeNAS monitor the UPS and then NUT (within FreeNAS) will send out status messages to all hardware on my network. I only have two systems monitoring for the NUT commands, both ESXi systems. So those systems will power down gracefully if commanded. What I don't have is the automatic power on really. If the UPS goes completely dead then once power is restored my PCs could automatically power back on but that is a BIOS feature and I have mine all set to "Power Off" and since I told them to power off, they will stay there. If the UPS commands to power off but then the building power is restored, well it's too late and the systems will power off.

Lets keep it real, it's better to be safe so I power down and leave them down but if your BIOS supports it (most do) you can tell it to "Power On" when power is restored and they will come up automatically. Let me tell you why I don't like that... One simple reason, if power comes back and then drops 30 seconds later then you could corrupt your system, what if it happens repeatedly? It takes time for your UPS to recharge the battery so again, play it safe and just leafve the system off. It's not much of a hardship to walk down to the basement about 15 minutes after power is restored and turn everything back on. I say 15 minutes becasue typically in my area, if we loose power and it comes back for 3 minutes, odds are it will remain on. I do not live in an area with brownouts so that is of minor concern to me.

 

[rmccullough]

@joeschmuck this sounds like a reasonable setup and is likely what I will setup using a USB connection to FreeNAS and then configure NUT on FreeNAS To notify other systems to power off.

What would be really nice is if you could setup your UPS to only restore power to the battery backup outlets once the batter has re-charged a certain percentage (e.g. 30%).

 

[jgreco]

@joeschmuck this sounds like a reasonable setup and is likely what I will setup using a USB connection to FreeNAS and then configure NUT on FreeNAS To notify other systems to power off.

What would be really nice is if you could setup your UPS to only restore power to the battery backup outlets once the batter has re-charged a certain percentage (e.g. 30%).

You can definitely do that on the better quality UPS's, but typically not on the consumer-grade ones. UPS manufacturers make their money on feature differentiation.

 

[joeschmuck]

You can definitely do that on the better quality UPS's, but typically not on the consumer-grade ones. UPS manufacturers make their money on feature differentiation.

Depending on the UPS you select (you will need to do some research) you might find one that supports a feature like that, you you could find an UPS that at least reports the capacity and you could use a computer controlled power switch, write a script that monitors NUT and then turns on the power strip outlets as desired. I'm not going to tell you that it would be easy nor quick as you would need to do a lot of research and testing, and maybe fall short. The real trick on the UPS is having it turn itself back on, that is where you might need an UPS that has that feature built in.

If this is a home system then I'd just buy a nice basic household UPS unit and if you run into a power outage, oh well. If you are in a location that has frequent power outages then you need to plan accordingly. As I previously stated, I don't even see brownouts these days and if power goes out for any length of time, I'm perfectly fine with my system shutting down and then I can manually power it back on once I feel it's charged enough.

 

[jgreco]

Well yeah. The microcontroller on the UPS itself is the obvious ideal location to do this, but since UPS manufacturers do not want to do that on a low-end UPS, for fear of gutting the market for the high-end highly-profitable units, it's not likely to happen. Bolting on a microcontroller, Raspberry Pi or Arduino or whatever, isn't ideal but you could definitely get the UPS to power back on with some hackery. The question is how hard would it be to debug and get working reliably.

 

[joeschmuck]

Well yeah. The microcontroller on the UPS itself is the obvious ideal location to do this, but since UPS manufacturers do not want to do that on a low-end UPS, for fear of gutting the market for the high-end highly-profitable units, it's not likely to happen. Bolting on a microcontroller, Raspberry Pi or Arduino or whatever, isn't ideal but you could definitely get the UPS to power back on with some hackery. The question is how hard would it be to debug and get working reliably. :)

I agree 100% with your statements. If I were to desire advanced features then I would just go purchase the proper UPS unit to fit my needs. Hey, another alternate solution is to just install a Generac automatic home power system, it would allow you to also watch TV, keep the ice cubes cool, give you some lighting at night. It does cost a bit more but it would be the most robust system option. To purchase something like this, I'd have to tell my wife that she hates it when we loose power during winter or on a super hot day and this would fix all those issues. I would NOT mention putting in a circuit for my computers, that would not go over well. :)

 

[danb35]

DW and I have talked about getting a generator, and may get around to it some day--but if we do, it's going to be big enough to run the HVAC. It'll power the computers too, but selling her on the idea is easy enough: that's where the Plex server lives. No power there, no movies.

 

[joeschmuck]

DW and I have talked about getting a generator, and may get around to it some day--but if we do, it's going to be big enough to run the HVAC. It'll power the computers too, but selling her on the idea is easy enough: that's where the Plex server lives. No power there, no movies.

If you live in an area that has a lot of brownouts and power outages then I truley feel a whole house generator is a good investment. I shouldn't say whole house, it is really just select circuits and for $20K (includes pouring a pad and electrical installation) you can definately get one that will also handle the HVAC system. When I lived up in Mass. I looked into these things but fortunately I got a job offer just over a year after moving up there to move back to Georgia so I jumpped at it. Now I live in Virgina and just over 1 block from the Fire Department in out little town, on the same power grid so when I do loose power, it is not gone long. It is one of the first grids to be restored.

Well time to head out to Sears and buy me a set of sockets. Since my father has moved in it turns out that i can't find half of my tools. I use to be organized and now it's kaos. I'm buying a kit that I can lock up. I went to change the oil in my Mazda Miata this morning and could not find a 12mm socket. I had at least 3 of these and easy to find but I ended up using a 1/2' drive 12mm impact socket on a 25" breaker bar, just a bit overkill to remove the protective pan from underneath the car. I love my dad but at 82 he can sure drive me crazy. It's a good thing I'm not OCD.

 

[danb35]

I have my eye on a diesel unit from affordablegenerator.com--I can get a 20KW set for just over $10k, though obviously shipping and installation will add to that cost. We don't have natural gas here, and though I could run one on propane, diesel has much better energy density.

Yeah, I hate missing tools. And almost invariably, I'll find what I was looking for shortly after I buy a replacement. I don't know that I'd trust Craftsman tools any more, though, since they've taken production to China (if I'm going to buy a Chinese tool, I might as well go to Harbor Freight).

 

[joeschmuck]

First of all I'm sorry we are way off topic, this will be my last posting off point. I thought about Harbor Freight as I drove past it today but Sears still honors life time damage to sockets, ratchets, and most tools, and they are having a serious sale. I paid $102.02 for the 230 piece set in a nice case and I'm pretty happy with that. Now I need to figure out how to lock up this case. Wish it had room for my new digitl multimeter, my dad keeps finding my meters too and never puts them back where he found them. My newest meter has a nice scratch across the screen that mysteriously occured one day. I was not happy.

As for using diesel over propane, please consider that diesel fuel will last up to 1 year before starting to go bad so you would need to either drain the fuel from the tank be it from running the generator or using the fuel elsewhere (like in a diesel car) whereas propane doesn't go bad, you just need to check it periodically to ensure it hasn't leaked out and if it's installed correctly then all should be good.

Again, my last off topic posting. I do like this community we have here.