Advice for best setup for disks in a 24disk system

ehsab

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Hi,
I came over a 2U Supermicro system really cheap, and it has a (passive, no expander) SAS3 backplane with 3 LSI 3008 HBAs.
Im looking to add 24 (400GB) SSDs but i'm not sure how to split the disks, seems like mirrored vdevs is a waste of space. But i don't whant to add a 24 disk raidz either.
I also have a 8GB RMS300 i was thinking of using as a slog, if that has any weight in making a decision.

Usecase is Backups and if primary storage fails use it for iscsi to my VMs at home.

Kind Regards
 

ornias

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You shouldn't use ssd's for backups. Thats a waste of money.

They also have different requirements.
For backups a raidz2 or raidz3 with 8-12 disks would be great.

For VM storage you would want (tripple) mirrors, because the performance is important.

My setup would be something like:
- 1x12 disk harddrive raidz2-raidz3 for backups
- 4x3 disks mirror for VM storage
 

c77dk

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With the usecase you specify I would suggest something like 3x 8disk raidz2. Will end up with about 5TB usable space
 

Patrick M. Hausen

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To add to @ornias recommendation of regular hard disks for backup a bit: SSDs won't retain your data when stored on the shelf. They must be powered and used and are completely unsuitable for archive purposes.

While spinning magnetic media also come without any warranty - compare special archive optical media with glass substrate or archive tapes, for example - they are way better in this regard. The biggest problem with them is that they might not spin up after long term storage. SSDs OTOH will definitely lose their data over time.
 

ehsab

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Thanks for replying,
I've been looking at HDDs aswell, but what disks should i then use? I can get SAS3 SSDs at 400GB for roughly $90 each (refurbished of course).
And since they are refurbished i was looking at striping two 12disk z3 in a pool. Is that a dumb move?
But perhaps 3x8 z2 is a better option?

I'm not looking to split the disks for different usecases, i'm gonna use the server for backups (replicate my primary truenas box), and if/when my primary truenas server fails, use this server for iscsi connections.
 

Patrick M. Hausen

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I would seriously consider 3x 8 disk Z3 given that they are refurbished disks. 15 disks net storage of 24 is not that bad a ratio. In hobbyist setups the most common pool seems to be the 4 disk Z2, which gives 50% net capacity.

That's still over $2.000 for roughly 6 to 10 TB of storage. You could easily get twice that with 4x 10 TB new SATA disks and still have money left for another new or used system to hold them. So are you sure this is the best approach? Even if that system was free/cheap?
 

ornias

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Remember: you needs IOPS for VM's and each vdev just gives the iops of a single disk.
So no: 2x12 in raidz3 is not a solid option.

Btw:
There are good refurb 3-4TB disks for 30$ each.
 

Patrick M. Hausen

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From the number 24 in 2U and his intention to get SAS disks, I figure the case holds 2.5" only, not 3.5".
 

ehsab

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Thats the thing, 2.5" only.
But im all ears for suggestions on what spinning disk would suit this setup.

How big of an impact does a RMS300 (PCIe) slog have on a system like this?
i bet alot if i go with spinning disk?

Oh and i forgot to say that my environment is not that big, im under 1TB storage atm, but i whant it fast, as fast as possible.
 

jgreco

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Thats the thing, 2.5" only.
But im all ears for suggestions on what spinning disk would suit this setup.

2.5" spinning disks for ZFS top out at 2TB with the Spinpoint M9T (2TB, 2014 era) and the WD Red 1TB drive (2013 era)

The Spinpoints are designed for laptops and gaming consoles and are not quite NAS-appropriate, but are usable.

Basically, all 2.5" hard drives beyond that size went SMR, which is (approximately) incompatible with ZFS.

How big of an impact does a RMS300 (PCIe) slog have on a system like this?
i bet alot if i go with spinning disk?

If you are thinking that SLOG is a write cache, ... it isn't.

https://www.truenas.com/community/threads/some-insights-into-slog-zil-with-zfs-on-freenas.13633/

The SLOG can make sync writes for your VM environment faster, but never faster than the underlying pool with sync writes disabled.

I can get SAS3 SSDs at 400GB for roughly $90 each (refurbished of course).

That seems like it could be a bad choice. Samsung was recently blowing out 860 EVO 1TB's for $99, new, and the 870 EVO's are going for about $120.

There seems to be a lot of undue angst about using consumer grade SSD's in servers. However, I've been doing it for at least a decade, with a relatively large inventory, and most of the original SSD's we purchased are still hanging around. Part of this is simply figuring out what your actual write workload is. The 60GB and 120GB SSD's we bought a decade ago were estimated to last a few years until SSD prices dropped, that happened, they got replaced with 480-500GB SSD's for similar prices, but they didn't actually wear out. I ran across four 120's I gifted to a good cause just last week and they are still truckin'.

That's not to say enterprise SSD doesn't have value, sometimes it does, but also often it doesn't. Back in 2015 on Black Friday, the Intel 535 (Sandforce) 480GB SSD's were selling for, I wanna say about $160 each, and we bought a *bunch*. These have about 73TBW endurance, and I put them in roles where I knew we could burn through that in just two or three years, but I saw SSD price trends decreasing, and they had Intel's 5 year warranty, and the price for so-called "datacenter" SSD was several times that. I put SSD's in RAID1 with a spare, so outfitting a machine with 5 x 480TB SSD's was actually still cheaper than a single nonredundant "enterprise" SSD like a S3500 1.2TB ($1100) with its 275TBW.

We had some of the 535's burn up as expected, but a lot of them lasted longer. Over the last two years of their warranty, I think we turned in half a dozen to Intel, who sent us brand new 545s SSD's in exchange (bonus!). I just had another 535 lose it earlier this month, darn, I won't be getting an RMA replacement for it. :-(

So, the thing is, ZFS works better when you have more free space. If your endurance requirements can fit within what consumer SSD's can provide, it may not be such a good idea to spend money on enterprise SSD, especially "refurb" ones.
 

ornias

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2.5" spinning disks for ZFS top out at 2TB with the Spinpoint M9T (2TB, 2014 era) and the WD Red 1TB drive (2013 era)

The Spinpoints are designed for laptops and gaming consoles and are not quite NAS-appropriate, but are usable.

Basically, all 2.5" hard drives beyond that size went SMR, which is (approximately) incompatible with ZFS.
There are also some cool toshiba's with 3TB capacity though... But hard to get your hands on currently :(
 

jgreco

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There are also some cool toshiba's with 3TB capacity though... But hard to get your hands on currently :(

I was not aware. After years of being frustrated with the topping-out at 2TB, that's nice ... ish ... to hear, but at this point I'm sorta just waiting for SSD prices to get a bit lower and then I'll buy 4TB SSD's instead.

I stand corrected, but it is probably too little too late for practical purposes.
 

HoneyBadger

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if primary storage fails use it for iscsi to my VMs at home.
...
SAS3 SSDs and RMS-300 SLOG
Your "backup storage" is likely set up to be faster than many production iSCSI environments I've seen installed.

2.5" trays don't really align themselves for "backup" workloads - as mentioned above they're reasonably topped out at 2TB per bay, and we're easily into generally-available 16TB 3.5" drives.

If you set that 24-bay up as three 8-drive Z2's you end up with 30TB of usable space. By contrast, if you use a 12-bay 3.5" system, use 16TB drives, and do 2x 6-drive Z2, that's 112TB.
 

ehsab

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If i was aiming for space, i would indeed get a 3,5" system, but i'm trying to balance space with performance.
I don't really need more then 4-5TB of usable storage in the years to come (i think i might add).

I dont think i will come close to the DWP the consumer SSDs can handle, even when using it as a backup target, but whats the pros and cons when comparing a consumer grade SATA SSD with an enterprise/datacenter SAS SSD.

Sandisk SAS3 SSD

Samsung SATA SSD

The samsung is perhaps a better choice, it will be a brand new disk, draws less power, later nand technology. Price is rougly the same on both.
But somehow i can't shake the feeling that a enterprise disk would be more solid/stable when primary work is write. Not that i worry about if the samsung would fail completely then i will get a new on warranty, i'm just concerned it will not deliver the performance i seek.

All recommendations are welcomed.
 
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ehsab

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After reading https://blog.cavelab.dev/2021/02/zfs-ssd-pool-problems/ i will skip Samsung Evo drives.
After some research i think i'm going with the 1TB Crucial MX500 Sata SSD. It's just $100/each and i get a brand new disk with 5y warranty. I think it will suffice.
I might even start with only14 disks (6 mirrored vdevs and use 2 disks as GHS) and then just add more vdevs if/when i need more space/performance.
 
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HoneyBadger

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Bear in mind that the MX500 has an issue with false-positive SMART errors for "pending sectors" - it will toggle between 1 and 0. There are commands set to ignore that value, but I can't recall them at the moment.

The WD Blue SATA SSDs have been used by others with good success; there is also the WD Red SATA SSD. Avoid the DRAMless ones like the WD Green.

Re: the performance question; certainly an all-SSD unit will deliver the performance you want, but a backup workload often doesn't need to use sync writes at all, so the streaming/sequential IO is served fine from an HDD, and the files are big enough to be deleted and overwritten in large chunks, which helps mitigate fragmentation. You'll really only see a significant performance benefit from the SSDs if you're trying to restore a backup at the same time you're saving a new one.

Of course, if you're planning to run a live iSCSI/VM workload from there, the SSDs will of course be a massive improvement there.
 
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