Separate forums for each major version?

[danb35]

The more additional subforums are created, the less sense it's making to me. Back in the old days (i.e., before rebranding everything to "TrueNAS"), there was a pretty well-defined set of subforums for FreeNAS, with divisions that pretty well made sense. Although there were tweaks to it, the same basic structure was deemed adequate for releases 8.x through 11.x, and changes from one release to the next were incremental enough that there wasn't really any perceived need to create different forums for each release.

Then iX decided that everything had to be called TrueNAS, and with that came a new set of forums. Rather than rename the existing forums (which would, IMO, have made more sense, since it was 99% the same product), we got a new forum division for "TrueNAS", a forum within that for "General Help", with its own set of subforums that weren't similar at all to the ones that had worked well for FreeNAS. We have a separate top-level forum for "Applications and Plugins" (which might include jails and VMs, or it might not--and may or may not include SCALE applications). We have a separate forum for SCALE, which makes sense, as it's a different product with (inexplicably) a mostly-different UI (which incorporates a number of feature requests people have logged against CORE which weren't included in CORE, but that's a different thread). And now we have a separate forum for TrueNAS 13, with no subforums.

The result is that threads are posted all over the place, without apparent consideration of which version of Free/TrueNAS they apply to. And to what end? We didn't need a new set of forums for 9 when it was released, nor for 9.10 (which should have been 10 but for the dumpster fire that was CorralThe Release That Must Not Be Named), nor for 11 (despite the change of 11.1 to including a completely new UI, to 11.2 making that new UI the default, to 11.3 removing the legacy UI). But for 12, despite using substantially the same UI, now we need a new set of forums. And for 13, which again uses substantially the same UI, we have a new single forum?

 

[winnielinnie]

Mods, please move this thread to Forums -> Tangential FreeNAS/TrueNAS Discussion -> Pre-Naming Merge -> Established Community -> Forum Suggestions

 

[Tigersharke]

Mods, please move this thread to Forums -> Tangential FreeNAS/TrueNAS Discussion -> Pre-Naming Merge -> Established Community -> Forum Suggestions

Hahaha.. someone has jokes :)

The more additional subforums are created, the less sense it's making to me. Back in the old days (i.e., before rebranding everything to "TrueNAS"), there was a pretty well-defined set of subforums for FreeNAS, with divisions that pretty well made sense. Although there were tweaks to it, the same basic structure was deemed adequate for releases 8.x through 11.x, and changes from one release to the next were incremental enough that there wasn't really any perceived need to create different forums for each release.

Then iX decided that everything had to be called TrueNAS, and with that came a new set of forums. Rather than rename the existing forums (which would, IMO, have made more sense, since it was 99% the same product), we got a new forum division for "TrueNAS", a forum within that for "General Help", with its own set of subforums that weren't similar at all to the ones that had worked well for FreeNAS. We have a separate top-level forum for "Applications and Plugins" (which might include jails and VMs, or it might not--and may or may not include SCALE applications). We have a separate forum for SCALE, which makes sense, as it's a different product with (inexplicably) a mostly-different UI (which incorporates a number of feature requests people have logged against CORE which weren't included in CORE, but that's a different thread). And now we have a separate forum for TrueNAS 13, with no subforums.

The result is that threads are posted all over the place, without apparent consideration of which version of Free/TrueNAS they apply to. And to what end? We didn't need a new set of forums for 9 when it was released, nor for 9.10 (which should have been 10 but for the dumpster fire that was CorralThe Release That Must Not Be Named), nor for 11 (despite the change of 11.1 to including a completely new UI, to 11.2 making that new UI the default, to 11.3 removing the legacy UI). But for 12, despite using substantially the same UI, now we need a new set of forums. And for 13, which again uses substantially the same UI, we have a new single forum?

I agree. Much of these forum changes described above I would not have done, certainly not after being told what is described above. I have tried on occasion to influence some degree of sanity with various things. When those above my head or those who are not volunteers here decide something then that is often how it ends up being. Worse is when change happens simply for its own sake, or it is not thought out enough, or is done suddenly.. if reining-in of the changes happens after its public this causes other issues, but it may be best (though messy) if the whole is more disorder(ed) than it ought to be.

 

[chruk]

Having noticed some live FreeNAS discussions (I think I replied to one recently), your suggestions make sense to me.

 

[Tigersharke]

One other comment about "making new forums which supercede the old ones" for no apparant reason.. maybe partly for archiving?

This can most certainly be done better, even as categories can have groups of forums, or even sub-forums can be nested. I suppose we can only wait and see what those who 'administered' these recent forum changes say about it. IMHO, regardless though, other nesting whether under category or as sub-forums I think would be the best way to keep things both accessible and organized and make reasonable sense.

An archived or deprecated forum whichever is best, can be renamed as well as being placed in nested fashion as is true in the 'Forum Suggestions' forum itself: https://www.truenas.com/community/forums/forum-suggestions.69/ which as an archived forum that I believe allows no new posts, and one for Ganz großes Kino posts specifically which also has archived collections of posts by year.
** Although I just realized those are long threads themselves, so can very easily simply be renamed, locked, archived. The idea stays the same, as is done for Ganz großes Kino forum, but instead it would be a new forum under the category or that of one other forum (as a sub-forum).

 

[Ericloewe]

Mods, please move this thread to Forums -> Tangential FreeNAS/TrueNAS Discussion -> Pre-Naming Merge -> Established Community -> Forum Suggestions

Sorry, that section can only be added to following a decision by iX after consulting the mod team. However, if you can gather 25 upvotes (ideally likes, but we can accept similar positive reactions) we can submit it for review and should hear back in 2-6 weeks.
Alternatively, we can discuss opening Forums -> Tangential FreeNAS/TrueNAS Discussion -> Pre-Naming Merge -> Established Community -> Forum Requests to hopefully make this process more agile. I expect response times might go down by a week or two, but we'll need three weeks to set it up.

Alternatively, if you prefer, you can submit requests by snail mail by filling out form 11A Blue (Not to be confused with 11A Green or 11B Blue). Please sign pages 2, 3 and 5, as well as addendum A if mailing from outside the US. Please also include a self-addressed envelope with postage paid with your email address written on it (don't ask, the mail room is very picky and their equipment is only slightly newer than most IBM System/360s) so that replies can be emailed back to you. For expedited processing, include form 215 and a notarized statement that says "I am in a hurry, please proces my request more quickly" [sic] - yes, with the typo. Again, don't argue with the mail room. Legal will process your form 215 and email you a corrected draft for your signature. Please sign (digitally with a Qualified signature or by hand - in the latter case, please include a photocopy of your ID or passport) the contract and return it for countersignature. You will receive a countersigned copy for your records, which will serve as proof of expedited processing.

 

[danb35]

@JoshDW19? @wsoteros? Any other forum admin? Any thoughts on this? What you've done might make a little bit of sense if your mods were actively policing threads and putting them in the right place, but that isn't happening, and the forum structure really seems to be turning into a mess.

 

[garm]

I would also add that maybe its time for a architecture upgrade any way? something like https://www.discourse.org/ would give the forum a much sleeker look and make following topics easier.

 

[danb35]

I'm kind of meh on Discourse, even as I run a couple of them (e.g., https://talk.spare-oom.com/). As a small-forum admin, it's great--installation is trivial (seriously, it's a one-liner on a basic Ubuntu system), upgrades are simple, lots of themes and plugins to use, good moderation tools, etc. But I'm not a huge fan of it as a user, largely because everything tends to run together.

But with a combination of categories and tags, it could nicely address what's going on here--though it'd still take more careful planning than, frankly, it seems is happening. Categories could look something like this:

• General support
  • Beginners
  • Hardware
  • Networking
  • Sharing
  • ...
• Developers
  • Not sure how relevant this category really is, but...
• Virtualization
  • TN as host
  • TN as guest
• Apps and plugins
  • I don't think this really belongs as a top-level category; it makes more sense to me as a sub of general support--but that happened long ago
  • "manual" jails
  • plugin jails (if iX wants to continue to pretend they're viable)
  • SCALE apps
  • Yes, these should really be broken down--lumping them together as is now done is needlessly confusing
• Community
  • Deals
  • Off-topic
  • Forum suggestions

...and then, in the appropriate categories, set mandatory tags for product and version.

 

[danb35]

I see this isn't the first time I've raised this issue, but it seems to be getting worse rather than better:

Jails/plugins/bhyve forums?

Not too long ago, the jails/plugins/bhyve forum was moved out of help & support. Seemed kind of odd at the time--that forum is no less about help and support than the hardware or storage forums. Now, I notice that the plugins forum has been split off from that, so there's one forum for...

www.truenas.com

And

Where should we post new threads?

Ever since the release of 12.x, FreeNAS is now known as TrueNAS Core. However, we still have the "Help & Support" subforums under the FreeNAS category, while the TrueNAS category contains no such subforums. 1) Will the "FreeNAS" category be renamed to "TrueNAS Core" in this message board? 2)...

www.truenas.com

 

[Ericloewe]

I would also add that maybe its time for a architecture upgrade any way? something like https://www.discourse.org/ would give the forum a much sleeker look and make following topics easier.

I'm not in favor of that one. Things quickly turn into a monstrous mess worse than the one we have here. I do agree though that we need to rationalize the current forum structure.

I'd probably go for a serious cut to the number of forums and to try and get a flatter structure.

 

[danb35]

I'm not in favor of that one.

One thing Discourse could do, that I don't see a good way for Xen to do, is greatly flatten the structure while preserving the distinction among products and versions--assuming that's now seen to be necessary, though it wasn't throughout the run of FreeNAS. This would be done using tag families, and making them mandatory in places where relevant (e.g., Help & Support). So you'd have, e.g., a single Help & Support category, with sub-categories for Hardware, Networking, etc. When posting there, you'd have to tag with a product (FreeNAS, TrueNAS CORE, TrueNAS SCALE, etc.), and once a product is chosen, a sub-tag for version (which surely wouldn't need to be more granular than major.minor, and might only need to account for major releases).

I'm not a Discourse cheerleader, but its structure seems like it would help with the problem I've mentioned. But there's a more fundamental issue, I think, and that's that it really seems these forums have--especially lately--just grown organically, without any real thought or planning in their structure. I don't want to be mean about it, but I think that's the most charitable conclusion I can make when I look at the contents of the TrueNAS top-level forum (which itself should probably go away as a level of division). There's a subforum for FreeNAS (i.e., everything <= FN11) with its own subforums. There's a subforum for "General Help" with its own, different, subforums, but based on the remaining forums here that one can only relate to TN12. There's another subforum for TN13, with no subforums of its own. There's another for SCALE, with only one subforum. And then one for Applications and Plugins, with no indication of which version(s) it applies to. And then someone decided to whack in one about running TN as a VM. This is just nonsensical. Broadly speaking, users are going to have the same sorts of questions about each of these releases--a few things that would be unique to SCALE, of course. If there's value in distinguishing among discussions of hardware, networking, storage, and user authentication for FN9.3, there can't be any less value in doing so for TN13 or for SCALE--so if we need separate forums for SCALE, TN12, and TN13 (which I'd question), they really ought to have the same subforums. And if I want to run SCALE as a VM, where do I go to discuss that?

The purpose of creating subforums is to keep similar discussions together. But for that to work, the users have to understand the structure--and I just don't understand it.

 

[Ericloewe]

One thing Discourse could do, that I don't see a good way for Xen to do, is greatly flatten the structure while preserving the distinction among products and versions--assuming that's now seen to be necessary, though it wasn't throughout the run of FreeNAS. This would be done using tag families, and making them mandatory in places where relevant (e.g., Help & Support).

I think that's mostly doable on XenForo, it's just that nobody's gone through and configured it all here, never mind keeping it up to date.

 

[danb35]

never mind keeping it up to date.

...and of course that would be necessary regardless which software solution we're using--if it's now deemed necessary, for some reason, to have separate places to discuss each major release, someone's going to need to do some forum maintenance every time there's a major release, whether it's in creating a new set of subforums or setting up new tags.

 

[Redcoat]

and making them mandatory

In this community? Surely you jest!

 

[JoshDW19]

Having used Discourse in the past for other projects, I'm not a fan at all. For a busy forum, things get buried so fast. You can also say goodbye to your data if you ever migrate off of the solution so I've lobbied for us to stay on an open infrastructure (meaning we can migrate in and out easily) like Xenforo for several years.

Your point stands though. We could stand to do some cleanup around here and also make it easier to navigate at the same time. @wsoteros maybe we could take some of these ideas that have been presented in this thread and see if it makes sense to redo the structure a bit as we look to migrate to Xenforo Cloud. I appreciate the ideas!

Thanks,

- Josh

 

[danb35]

Just in case it wasn't clear, I'm not recommending a move to Discourse--just noting that its architecture would allow for simultaneously (1) maintaining a reasonably-straightforward forum structure, and (2) segregating threads by software release. I don't see much, if any, value in the second, but many of the recent subforums suggest that iX does--and hey, it's your forum, your rules. But I have enough experience with Discourse to know that it's fairly straightforward to do this there; I don't have the experience with Xenforo to know if it can be done there.

My issue is that the structure of the forums just doesn't make a lot of sense. Whatever software you use for the forum, there's a lot of room for improvement there--and hopefully the discussion on that subject will lead to an easier-to-understand (and smaller) set of subforums.

 

[danb35]

And now Bluefin has its own forum. This is not a step in the right direction.

 

[winnielinnie]

This isn't ad-hoc'd or confusing at all...

• TrueNAS
  • Announcements
  • TrueNAS News
  • General Help
    • General
    • Installation
    • Upgrades
    • Operation
    • Performance
    • Hardware
  • Applications and Jails
    • Storj Discussion
  • Virtualized TrueNAS
  • Developer's Corner
  • TrueNAS 13.0
  • TrueNAS SCALE
    • App Migration
    • TrueNAS SCALE Bluefin
    • Apps
    • Development
    • Virtualization
    • Clustering
  • FreeNAS (Legacy Software Releases)
    • Will it FreeNAS? - FreeNAS Build Discussion
    • FreeNAS Help & support
      • New to FreeNAS?
      • Hardware
      • User Authentication
      • Sharing
      • Storage
      • Networking
      • Installation and Updates
      • General Questions and Help
    • Jails and bhyve
  • International Discussion
    • Translation
    • Chinese - 中文
    • French - Français
    • German - Deutsch
    • Dutch - Nederlands
    • Italian - Italiano
    • Portuguese - Português
    • Romanian - Română
    • Russian - Русский
    • Spanish - Español
    • Swedish - Svenske
    • Turkish - Türkçe
  • TrueCommand
• Community Discussion
  • Great Deals
  • Community Forum
    • Introductions
    • Forum Suggestions
      • Ganz großes Kino: discussion
    • Off-topic

 

[Tigersharke]

You don't even see the entire tree of forums which are existing but disabled or hidden. When I do moves or other organization I have to be careful to doublecheck what I intend and again after.

However, whatever way that the heirarchy of forums are arranged here is only one method of organizing. XenForo also allows for prefixes and tags. I'm not sure if either of those should be open to any user to apply but they are also two qualities that can be applied to a thread or post for sorting or filtering later. Different versions of TrueNAS could have a prefix to denote the major revision or where one version would no longer apply or break something. Tags I think are underutilized overall but also would need periodic clarification so that multiple tags with the same intended meaning or functional grouping would not remain.