RaidZ3

Is FreeNAS able to handle RaidZ3?

  • No or not jet

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Arny006

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Hello together,
I'm new here, want build nearly time a NAS and have some experience with Linux.
My intent is to build (for beginning) a 6+4 RAIDZ3 with 2 spares.
Already read some documentation and view some video but nowhere talking about RAIDZ3.

Can I let FreeNAS use RaidZ3?

Thanks in advance and best regards

Arny
 

SweetAndLow

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also you probably don't want spares. If I had drives plugged in using power and spinning all the time i think I would want to be using the storage of them.
 

Arny006

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@ first thanks you all for the answers.

@anodos : Thanks for the link. I read already some instruction on how to build RaidZ3 with the command line, but I hope can back to you in case of need. Thanks again!

@SweetAndLow: see my third line "My intent is to build (for beginning) a 6+4 RAIDZ3 with 2 spares."

BR Arny
 

SweetAndLow

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You shouldn't build your pool from the command line. FreeNAS is designed to be used from the GUI not the CLI. If done from the CLI you need to do it exactly like freenas wants with gptid and swap space.
 

Arny006

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I read the manual (thanks again anodos) and find already out that as soon enough disks are present... the web-interface offer the build of RaidZ3 too without using CLI. Thanks anyway!

In the Fractal Design R4 Define have I place for (max.) 15 HDD-drives: 8 in the 3.5" cage, 5 in the 5.25" (through ICY-box), 2 SSD-dimensions on MB-Tray-backside and still place for an ODD on top.

It will be great if I can install Kubuntu and Win7 in a respectively Jail just to test... but that's future.

I'm starting to love FreeNAS. Thanks again and bye
 

Ericloewe

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I'm not sure what you mean by 6+4 disks n RAIDZ3, since RAIDZ3 uses n+3 drives and there is no RAIDZ4.
 

Arny006

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OOPS! What's happen when build is done with the minimum of 5 disks? Remain only 2 disks for data? And with 24 disks? The 3 disks for parity will be full very fast?

Can anyone provide me a link to the specifications?
 

joeschmuck

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You have the wrong idea how ZFS works. Parity is spread across all the drives, not 3 specific drives in a RAIDZ3. The comment was in a RAIDZ3, your capacity is the number of drives minus 3 drives, roughly.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, spare drives do not work in FreeNAS yet, meaning they will not automatically fill in if there is a problem. I would not have spare drives installed into the system unless you could remove the power to them, otherwise you are just wearing them out.

Also, if using FreeNAS, do not use the CLI to create your vdevs, others have and there becomes a compatibility issue later down the line.
 

cyberjock

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What ^^^ said.

If you created your pool from the CLI now is a good time to stop, destroy the pool and remake it in the WebGUI so you don't have problems later. Often the problems you have later involve "destroying the pool and restoring from backup" which you don't want to do when that monster pool is full of data. ;)
 

danb35

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Arny006

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Thanks you all for the feedback. I work till now with RAID 1+0 through an ICH8. Through all related restrictions of ICH8 and "mdam" decide to make a dedicated nas for data.

@cyberjock and joeschmuck:
The building over CLI in no a item anymore see my post: "I read the manual (thanks again anodos) and find already out that as soon enough disks are present... the web-interface offer the build of RaidZ3 too without using CLI. Thanks anyway!"
I not yet starting, like a good german guy, first planning than executing, don't worry.

@joeschmuck.
Thanks for advice about spare disks, I appreciate the true even if not nice. In the mean time discover/read in chapter 8 of documentation that's not convenient to use more than 12 disks in 1 vdev, 3 to 9 disks is the normal amount.
Considering 12 disks in RaidZ3, it's mean [12-(12/3)] = 8 is the available capacity?
 

Ericloewe

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@joeschmuck.
Thanks for advice about spare disks, I appreciate the true even if not nice. In the mean time discover/read in chapter 8 of documentation that's not convenient to use more than 12 disks in 1 vdev, 3 to 9 disks is the normal amount.
Considering 12 disks in RaidZ3, it's mean [12-(12/3)] = 8 is the available capacity?

ICH8... Phew...

@joeschmuck.
Thanks for advice about spare disks, I appreciate the true even if not nice. In the mean time discover/read in chapter 8 of documentation that's not convenient to use more than 12 disks in 1 vdev, 3 to 9 disks is the normal amount.
Considering 12 disks in RaidZ3, it's mean [12-(12/3)] = 8 is the available capacity?

No, available capacity is n-3, so 9 drives. There's always three drives' worth of parity in a RAIDZ3 vdev (but it's spread out evenly across all drives).

I not yet starting, like a good german guy, first planning than executing, don't worry.

Since you're from Munich, I'll spare the BER jokes you clearly asked for. I'm glad the Wowi und Platzi school of engineering is not catching on.:p
 

Arny006

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Thanks again for answering and benevolence about the jokes ;).
My plan is following:
  1. Considering price-performance-ratio for SATA-HDD, 3TB is the best choice and perfect for my project.
  2. To dimension the amount of HDD we should also considering RAM-capacity given in JEDEC=GiB and HDD-capacity given in Decimal TB ~ 0.9095 TiB
  3. We should also consider the recommendation for amount of HDD in RAIDZ3 (3-9 usual, max 12) and the upcoming Chipset for Home-Server sustaining 64GiB-RAM (instead of actual 32Gib) for middle/end 2016
  4. Considered is also the need of RAM for OS=8GiB and 1GiB-RAM for each 1TiB storage-capacity (HDD). Available RAM for Storage by 32GiB-RAM=24TiB-HDD and by 64GiB-RAM=56TiB-HDD
Here the calculation:
  1. HDD-total-capacity: 10*3TB*0.9095*=27.285TiB
  2. HDD-effective-capacity: 27.285TiB*[(10-3)/10]=~19.1 TiB
By upcoming of new Chipset supporting 64GiB-RAM is possible to double the storage capacity by striping of additional 10*3TB-HDD in RAIDZ3

It's correct?

 

danb35

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Keep in mind, the 1 GB RAM / 1 TB storage guideline is a rough rule of thumb. There's a definite minimum of 8 GB, and 16 GB seems to be a "sweet spot" for many home users. Beyond that, it gets really uncertain. Depending on how you intend to use your system, there's a pretty good chance that 32 GB of RAM will be plenty even for your proposed 20 disks in two RAIDZ3 vdevs, having a net capacity of ~ 38 TB.

Your math is correct, and yes, you can stripe in another vdev in the future to double (or further increase) the capacity of the pool. Is there a particular reason you want to use RAIDZ3? RAIDZ2 is generally considered adequate for all but the most sensitive data, and it would gain you an additional disk's worth of net capacity.

You may also want to consider using a Socket 2011 motherboard and a Xeon E5 processor--those have much greater RAM capacity and are available now at relatively reasonable prices.
 

Ericloewe

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As danb35 said, there's no point in calculating the amount of RAM to the bit - especially because the rule doesn't specify formatted or unformatted capacity.
In your case 16GB might be enough. 32GB is safer. If you're planning on expanding, Xeon E5 is probably the better option, since you can easily scale to 64GB (and beyond). 32GB is restrictive on larger pools.
 

Arny006

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Thanks you all for feedback.
For first attempt would I use a older (actual available) hardware to acquire more experience with FreeNAS even if I use Kubuntu since end 2010 and have some understanding for Unix-like software.
For first NAS will I use 6 disks 250GB each and 8GB-RAM, that should not be too much outer recommendations with the purpose to test also stability. Of course that's maybe tight dimensioning but good example for final project/enlargement.

My intent is not to use (too much or not at all) compression due the fact that's real Home-Server and not needed for enterprise tasks even later hence I will not stress to much RAM/HDD-capacity relation.
That said, of course would test also RaidZ2 but only by problems with RaidZ3, though already tested ICH8 and mdadm Raid 1+0 and can compare.

I read also some discussion about RaidZ3/2 but also understand that Z3 running better/stabler with ZIL and L2ARC and that will be implemented. My opinion is that by ICH8 and mdadm the hardware have also to let run other (multi-)tasks respectively in Win or Linux and that cause freezing and data loss for all in Win and very long rebuild in Linux.

The hardware (MoO) should have Intel C Chipset supporting 64 GB RAM, ECC-RAM and a Xeon with integrated graphic-Card. Build one and never touch besides ADD cards for Network and additional SATA-Data connections.

Assumed that Z3 will have ZIL and L2ARC with correlated 1 less drive for storage, which else assumption/experience have you with Z3?
 

jgreco

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also you probably don't want spares. If I had drives plugged in using power and spinning all the time i think I would want to be using the storage of them.

You may want spares in the event you've already maxxed out the available redundancy option. For example, on a 12-drive filer, I've used RAIDZ3 on 11 drives to get an optimal config and placed the last drive as spare. This means I can initiate a replacement operation without touching the hardware and gives me something like RAIDZ3-and-a-half-kinda. The spare drive has run for as long as the pool itself has and is subject to the same SMART testing to identify problems, so it is basically ready to go the instant it is needed.

My intent is not to use (too much or not at all) compression due the fact that's real Home-Server and not needed for enterprise tasks even later hence I will not stress to much RAM/HDD-capacity relation.
That said, of course would test also RaidZ2 but only by problems with RaidZ3, though already tested ICH8 and mdadm Raid 1+0 and can compare.

I read also some discussion about RaidZ3/2 but also understand that Z3 running better/stabler with ZIL and L2ARC and that will be implemented. My opinion is that by ICH8 and mdadm the hardware have also to let run other (multi-)tasks respectively in Win or Linux and that cause freezing and data loss for all in Win and very long rebuild in Linux.

The hardware (MoO) should have Intel C Chipset supporting 64 GB RAM, ECC-RAM and a Xeon with integrated graphic-Card. Build one and never touch besides ADD cards for Network and additional SATA-Data connections.

Assumed that Z3 will have ZIL and L2ARC with correlated 1 less drive for storage, which else assumption/experience have you with Z3?

You seem to have a lot of information, some of it a bit odd.

1) ZFS is relatively big and eats resources. 8GB is a small or even tiny system.

2) Almost everyone should have compression enabled, unless you have a totally pathetic CPU. Compression primarily costs you when writing to disk; reading (decompression) is nearly free with any vaguely modern CPU. Your available disk space will increase (by an unknown amount) with no capex involved. Free beer!

3) You do not want L2ARC on an 8GB system. Once you get out to 64GB, maybe - but not likely to be useful on a home system. When your pool is very busy, L2ARC can act as a sort of turbo-boost to get more IOPS out of it. If your pool isn't busy, you're probably fine just pulling the data from the pool.

4) What you're calling ZIL is probably a SLOG, a separate log device. You probably don't need that unless you can clearly explain why you do.

5) RAIDZ3 works fine and the main issue is that you get reduced write performance.

6) Please bear in mind that a lot of the RAM sizing is vague. I deliberately rewrote bits of the handbook to be vague. Does it mean 1GB per 1TB of attached disk space? 1GB per 1TB of usable disk space? 1GB per 1TB of used disk space? There's no actual magic formula. We just know that that more disk needs more RAM and this seems to size well for general purpose uses. A heavily used fileserver might need substantially more.
 

Arny006

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1) ZFS is relatively big and eats resources. 8GB is a small or even tiny system.
Well for beginning with a bounce of 250 GB HDD should not be a big problem
2) Almost everyone should have compression enabled, unless you have a totally pathetic CPU. ...
For the beginning is the CPU a Quad @2.66GHz 775 Socket, hence standard compression ON.
3) You do not want L2ARC on an 8GB system...
OK & later with L2ARC (and 64GB-RAM) compensate a little the write-performances.
4) What you're calling ZIL is probably a SLOG, ...
Of course is ZIL=SLOG, I don't know why maybe I saw it by an explanation of NSA4Free? Can you tell me a bit pro and cons?

I'm feared more about network administration, I have not the vaguest notion about that, is probably out of topic but will appreciate a link for Net-Admin-noobs!
The only I know: FIX IP-ADDRESSES!

P.S.: How can I quote?
 
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