Hey, has anyone tried using the canned replies system we rolled out a week or so ago? Is this not good enough for you folk? I like the quiz idea to raise the bar of entry for users, is there a forum mod/hack that does this? By a show of hands, who is the moderator who banned a user for asking a question and told them to go RTFM? Is this how we treat new users? If so, how do you suppose we raise the bar of entry for moderators?
James,
I didn't even bother with the canned system. My problem is that the forum is being filled with constant repeated questions. We won't solve the problem by having canned responses. In fact, I'd argue we would make things worse if people started using it because searching for actual non-canned responses would quickly become difficult. The system would entice people to abandon their attempts to search when they get 50 threads that had a similar question and the same canned response for every single one. They'll just make another post, then get upset when I throw them the same canned response that they read 50 times from searching and want more information than the canned response provides. So now I've provided yet another canned response plus another post with details that they didn't(but possibly could have) search for. And I had to read that thread twice to boot.
I saw a forum that had a canned response system. The forum is now abandoned and gets about 5 new threads a week because all of the knowledgeable people left and there's over 7 pages of threads from the last 9 months with zero actual answers/solutions but lots of newbies asking "Where is everyone... is anyone out there? Does this forum even work?"
I think the canned response system, while perhaps well thought out, doesn't really work long term from my experience. And to be honest, I don't even bother trying to help people with searching anymore. As terrible as this is, I tell them to use the search feature(even though I won't use it). I used too, which is how we ended up with
WTF is wrong with this forum's search feature when I knew something was wrong with my search terms back in January. If I don't put enough search terms I'll get about 500 other threads of complete garbage relating to the same small handful of issues and if I go too precise on my search terms I risk not finding the thread I'm actually looking for because it was excluded for not having a term I included in the search. By the way... I found the link above by looking at the threads I've started, not by using the search engine.
I do tell people to consult the manual more than 10 times a week, and if I weren't ignoring threads that are answered in the manual I could probably do it at least 5 times a day even on slow-news weekends. I don't do it as a punitive measure, but to get people to read the manual. The manual(in my opinion) is extremely well written and provides tons of useful information for people that have never used FreeBSD, Unix, or even Linux. I've been a Windows/DOS guy since DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.0. I read the FreeNAS manual cover-to-cover and I knew how to install and do basic things with FreeNAS before I even created a virtual machine. I did lots of forum searches for about 2 weeks while I tried to determine what problems I might encounter, then made the jump to trying FreeNAS on hardware. I had a few questions that I was a little vague on as I had never used FreeBSD. After about 4 months of posting in the forums and getting my system setup exactly how I wanted it I assembled my original questions/answers and other useful stuff into my
vdev/zpool primer presentation. I have gotten raving comments back. I've had a few people create an account on the forums just to tell me thanks for the presentation(they told me they made the account just to thank me!)
I have only banned 1 person that I can think of. That was for foul language. I actually waited over a week expecting someone else(like an admin) would step in and explain that this behavior is completely unacceptable, but nobody did. Since the f-word was directed at me I really felt I shouldn't be handing out the ban-hammer and that an admin should have taken control and defended the forum rules. Nothing happened. After a week of no responses from anyone I banned him for 24 hours(only to make the point that we can and will ban if it continues), but I don't expect him to return either. He's been a bad egg since his first post.
The only other times I did any kind of "moderator-worthy" actions was deleting someone's IP from their post(it was an internet facing IP), and I
closed a thread that had the exact same issue just 2
hours before. Not to mention their issue is mentioned in the manual and I mentioned that the manual had his answer along with providing the answer in my post. After I closed the thread it was promptly reopened by "admin" with the response "Thread re-opened as only SPAM threads should be closed." This is not consistent with tons of other threads that have been closed. Heck, even my "WTF is wrong with the search engine" thread was closed after the post made by James at the end that wasn't a spam thread. Consistency is absolutely needed in my opinion. To be honest, I'm not sure if I've ever seen a spam thread on this forum... ever. The best I could do was ignore that person.
I've ignored about 10 different people in the last 6 months. Unfortunately, curiosity get the best of me and I read the post anyway. What amazes me is that despite reading the ignored users I have yet to ever have a person I've ignored ever post a question that was truly thought provoking and new. It's almost as if your first post is a clear indication of how hard you try to answer your own questions before turning to the forum. Maybe what they say about "put your best foot forward when you are first intruduced" really had value in forums.
I agree with James.
I really believe that these are all good suggestions on everyone's part.
Can someone explain how the project will get this implemented?
It's great to discuss and do proposals, but now it's time to take action.
Who can do what?
-Alfred
First, thank you Alfred for visiting the forum. It is nice to know that my thread hasn't been ignored. I've heard from some of the more senior members that we go through cycles where the admins take in alot of input but do very little executing. Please prove me wrong so I can win a bet!
I don't know a thing about running a forum unfortunately. I was(and still am) a moderator on another IT based forum. I log in every few days just to see what my old forum pals are up to but I don't do much moderating. Their forum really doesn't require moderation since they have an approval system that requires you to read the forum rules. Then it asks you some questions from the forum rules and you have to get at least 80% for the account to be created. Another thing I really like about having a quiz-to-post is any one of those auto-posting-of-spam sites out there won't be able to pass the exam. It virtually requires a human to answer the questions, and they have to have more than a "I like to use youtube on my computer" knowledge.
What I would do if I were the supreme ruler of the forum:
1. Forum rules updated if/as approriate.
2. The forum rules
consistently enforced by the admins/moderators.
3. Something done to prevent the excessive spam of repeat questions within hours of each other as happens pretty regularly. Be it temporary 24 hour bans and the thread removed, permanent bans, or a quiz-to-post system. Whatever it takes. I don't try to search because I know its an effort in futility.
4. Not be afraid to use a 24 or 48 hour ban for people that can't follow the forum rules. If "admin" or "James" don't want to peruse the threads daily(who would?) then at least make the moderators feel comfortable that they won't be circumvented later as I was. I haven't done much moderation because I feel that we enforce the rules when we want to and choose to overrule people without an explanation. I had 5 emails from forum friends asking what was going on with the thread being reopened. I had never seen a thread reopened except by a moderator that had very useful information to provide to the thread. I sent a PM to "admin" asking for clarification on why I was overruled in that situation. Several other people stopped posting waiting for a response from "admin". It's been a month as of tomorrow, and still no answer, clarification of the forum rules, changes to the forum rules, or otherwise. Honestly, I get the feeling that my PM was never read since no response was given. TONS of other threads have been closed for reasons other than spam, so why the sudden change in rules(if there even was rules for this)? Even threads since my thread was reopened have been closed and they weren't spam. Not that I'm disagreeing that the threads should have been left open, but this random shifts in how threads are handled needs to be examined more closely. Quite often threads are closed because a thread from 2011 is resurrected by a brand new poster with 1 post asking for help that is completely unrelated to the thread, sometimes the issue was only in a 2 year old beta version(and hence fixed), or sometimes its from FreeNAS .7 because they didn't see the forum rules that say FreeNAS .7 is not FreeNAS 8.x.
5. (This one I'm only somewhat vague on as this issue was before my time so if I'm off base please forgive me) Not plagiarize other people's websites/presentations. ProtoSD had some really nice guides on how to do permissions and other things that regularly caused problems for users. It was ultimately removed because people were plagiarizing his work and putting their name on it. Someone just yesterday asked if someone could email him a copy of the "unauthorized" presentation so he could get his permissions fixed. I like my presentation and I'm not sure how I'd feel if someone took my presentation and called it their own. I know the NAS4Free forum admins asked if they could link to my presentation because the explanation for vdev/zpools is so good even they found it useful.
I've expanded the presentation slightly to encompass the unruly regular new threads answered with "not enough RAM" "CPU is more than 10 years old. What do you expect" and "You can't fix that.. you have to delete the zpool and start over" and "your version is more than a year old.. consider upgrading to fix that issue". Unfortunately, I could probably bet money that within the last 3 days I have seen at least 1 new thread that could have been answered with one of those. I know the "not enough RAM" and "your version is more than a year old" have happened just today. I answered one and ignored the other. The real kicker... all of those answers are in my presentation and explained thoroughly and easily for new users. As each new FreeNAS version comes out I go back and update the presentation as necessary, so it will always be updated as long as I'm somewhat involved with the forum. Even if I abandoned it right now it would probably stand on its own for the forseeable future since it deals with the theory and not actually setting up FreeNAS.
6. (This is somewhat related to the forum) Up the number of PMs in the mailbox to 500 or something. When i get involved with PMs with some users its nice to have a big mailbox so you can go back and refer to old PMs. I can't imagine that PMs use that much processing power or disk storage.
7. Allow for bigger pictures to be posted. Anyone that posts a screenshot gets it shrunk down to <100kb which seems to always be thumbnail size. Even if its something like "keep big pictures for 90 days after the last posting of the thread" would be a major plus or a forum topic specifically allowing big pictures that are deleted by moderators after 30 days. A picture says 1000 words, but a 100kb says about 10 words max. :P
Personally, I check the forum at least 3 times a day consistently and I see virtually every post that gets made. Unfortunately, about 50% of the threads I can guess what the OP is having a problem with and how to fix it just by reading their title. To me, this is a sign that something is wrong. I still read the thread though, but I'm ignoring more and more threads because I just don't want to spend an hour with the same few answers. I like to see new thought provoking questions, see problems nobody has had and how to fix them, and see detailed responses to complex scenarios that some members create just so I'll know the answers next time.
I do cut extra slack regularly for people that clearly speak English as a second language or otherwise are outside the USA. I know it can be hard to get support for mainly-English software packages when you aren't physically in the USA or speak English as a second language.
I agree with protoSD in that the moderators have been chomping at the bit for this problem for a long time. Most of the old school moderators say this problem has been around longer than I've been in the forums. This is an issue that I don't think can be resolved just by using moderators(even more of them). We need some kind of basic filter to help filter the worthwhile posters from the people that have no clue, installed FreeNAS after hearing about it 10 minutes ago and are asking why its not 100% completely intuitive(where's the Start button on my console?) Yes, we have had many people ask when the GUI will load up on the server and that it must be frozen since its "stuck" at a text based menu.
Quick edit: I know the forum user "Holykiller" has some knowledge of forum setup. I'm not sure how extensive his knowledge is, or if he is interested in getting involved with this, but shortly after he started posting to my "What is wrong with the search engine" thread it was fixed. I assume James and Holykiller tag-teamed the issue and got it fixed. He did post to this thread, but had a sightly different take on how to help fix the forum. While I think the quiz-to-post is better, I definitely respect his idea and I'd be open to at least seeing it implemented to see if it is very effective as he has more forum admin experience than I.
