DIY NAS for < $400 US (diskless) - possible?

[psdynpt]

Hello, folks, I wanted to see if there is a way to create a quality NAS for $400 US (hard drives would be extra), by possibly buying an older, slower high end server with lots of ECC ram plus SAS. Can you offer some advice /critique of this approach?

My main goal is to have a reliable CIFS file server (with occasional DLNA streaming), and I need good CIFS performance. I don't mind the larger box and extra power consumption.

I am specifically curious about buying a Dell Poweredge 6850 II, which has 4 ! older dual core CPU's (old Xeon 7040 Paxville) & clock speed of 3 GHz, built in 2006. This system comes with 32 GB !! of ECC ram and costs a little over $200 US. It comes with some older SAS controller that can accommodate 5 drives, 300 gb max each, so I imagine I would need to buy a better SAS controller, then figure out how to find a 220V power line in my house, and then I am done.

Any red flags / concerns here? Appreciate your advice!

 

[alexg]

Depending on your needs, take a look at Lenovo TS140. You can get from Amazon as low as $300 with 4GB ECC. Throw in another 8GB ECC for approx $80. My total cost without disks was under $400. That TS140 was as low as $250 at some point.

 

[psdynpt]

Alexg, appreciate the tip! Is it OK to add 8 gb ram from a different brand, compared to the 4 gb ram already installed in the pc? Also, is it worth adding a SAS controller + SAS hard drives, reliability-wise, or will SATA drives be just fine?

 

[alexg]

I used this one, ran memtest for 48 hours, and have been running 24x7 for 2.5 months now

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006YG8ZNI/?tag=ozlp-20

I don't see a need for SAS controller unless you running enterprise class storage. I have 4 WD RED drives on SATA

 

[alexg]

TS140 must be selling well. I paid $275 for mine back in February. I just checked amazon and it is up to $335 now.

 

[psdynpt]

Thank you for the info, alexg. Another question. This NAS will be used together with my existing Thecus 5200 (5x 1 TB WD RE2 drives), where Thecus will probably now become my on-site home data backup box, with the new NAS being the primary NAS.

Will such data backup architecture make sense (leaving aside the issue of having an additional off-site backup, which I have to some extent in the cloud, performed manually for most important docs.)?

I suppose it woudl be nice, that the backup NAS box had some kind of Wake On LAN ability, so that it could wake up once a day, only for the duration of the backup, then fall back asleep. Is that possible? Does that dictate a particular type of RAID?

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[joeschmuck]

Check out my tag line. You might be able to build the basic machine for about $400 and it won't eat power but it is very fast as well. The RAM is what really cost the money.

 

[Nick2253]

CIFS performance is dependent on your max single-threaded performance. A G3220 will have better CIFS performance than that pack of Xeons.

Messing with old hardware, even (or especially) server-grade, will land you in trouble. Either it's going to be too low spec, and not give you the performance that you want, or it's going to be too advanced (like your example above) and end up costing you a bunch more to bring yourself up to snuff.

 

[psdynpt]

CIFS performance is dependent on your max single-threaded performance. A G3220 will have better CIFS performance than that pack of Xeons.

Messing with old hardware, even (or especially) server-grade, will land you in trouble. Either it's going to be too low spec, and not give you the performance that you want, or it's going to be too advanced (like your example above) and end up costing you a bunch more to bring yourself up to snuff.

Thank you for the advice, Nick2253 and others. Based on alexg's tip, I ended up buying a ThinkServer TS140 i3-4130 3.4GHz for new for $279 US (comes with a useless 4gb non-ECC ram) plus 16gb of ECC ram ($169) - $440 total (a little over my initial budget). I plan to buy WD RE drives for this, based on my past reasonably good experience with them. I guess the main compromise of this config, as compared to an ideal NAS, is the fact that all drives are all hidden away inside the case and not hot-swappable (I can upgrade to a hot-swap case at a later date, if I care enough). Or am I forgetting some other important things, for which this config is not strong enough? My scenario is home use, with 1-2 people read / writing via CIFS to the NAS plus 1-2 streaming via DLNA, and reliability and CIFS performance are most important to me.


joeschmuck's AMD config seems to be more expensive, if you factor in the cost of the case / PSU, and I couldn't assess how it's performance would compare to the ThinkServer TS140 (faster/ slower/ similar).


I guess my initial thought about buying used Dell Poweredge 6850 II for $225 (made in 2006), would allow me to build a pretty nice (not low end) NAS for < $300, but I get Nick2253's point about hidden upgrades and advanced knowledge. I would be, in general, very interested in thoughtful articles like:

best DIY NAS under $300 (including buying some used / refurbed components)
best DIY NAS under $400
best DIY NAS under $500 and so on.

I have read quite a few articles on FreeNAS on older hardware, but most seem to focus on trying re-using older ridiculously inadequate configurations (like with 1 gb RAM) . On the other hand, despite Nick2253's point, there is quite a lot of used or refurbed quality hardware, manufactured within the last 5-6 years (like, for example, first generation i3 or i5 etc...), which has reasonable performance and is often available at a discount, usually refurbed or used, and I haven't come across many recommendations of using those in a FreeNAS zfs system.

Again, thank you all for your help!

 

[cyberjock]

psdynpt: One of the problems with using first gen(which is what my spare FreeNAS machine is), is that they are just expensive enough without RAM to not make them a good investment. If I were to sell my setup I might sell it for $150 for CPU and motherboard(no RAM). It will definitely use more power, generate more heat, and be slower than the latest gen stuff. But, I can buy some amazing current-gen CPU/motherboard for $250(or less). It'll use less power, run cooler, and be faster than the first gen i-series stuff. The RAM cost is basically the same regardless since it's the exact same RAM.

So you might save some money in the short term, but you aren't doing yourself any favors by going with the older stuff unless it's bought and paid for already.

The basic math is why nobody really recommends it. The math makes it clear that it's just not a worthwhile investment.

 

[psdynpt]

psdynpt: One of the problems with using first gen(which is what my spare FreeNAS machine is), is that they are just expensive enough without RAM to not make them a good investment. If I were to sell my setup I might sell it for $150 for CPU and motherboard(no RAM). It will definitely use more power, generate more heat, and be slower than the latest gen stuff. But, I can buy some amazing current-gen CPU/motherboard for $250(or less). It'll use less power, run cooler, and be faster than the first gen i-series stuff. The RAM cost is basically the same regardless since it's the exact same RAM.

So you might save some money in the short term, but you aren't doing yourself any favors by going with the older stuff unless it's bought and paid for already.

The basic math is why nobody really recommends it. The math makes it clear that it's just not a worthwhile investment.

Thanks for the analysis, cyberjock. I think I get your point, but aren't fully following your math. If small differences in CPU performance are not a big concern for a NAS (I assume that, in this case, even for CIFS, performance difference between i-series 1st gen vs current gen is not major), you are paying $100 extra for the current gen. On top of that, with refurbs or used systems, you can often get the case / PSU essentially for free, saving you another $70+, bring the total savings to $150+. On the downside, you lose in heat and power consumption.

Am I under-estimating the performance difference between the 1st vs current i-series generation CPU's, relevant to NAS, or perhaps there are major reliability concerns with 5+ year-old mobo/CPU's?

 

[cyberjock]

Am I under-estimating the performance difference between the 1st vs current i-series generation CPU's, relevant to NAS, or perhaps there are major reliability concerns with 5+ year-old mobo/CPU's?

Personally, I think so. Most people are looking to build a system that will last them at least 3 years. I wouldn't want to use 5 year old hardware, hope to save some dough, and expect it to actually last 3 more years. Good quality stuff might last that long, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

In my case, I went from a first gen 1366 xeon(low end) to an E3-1230v2 and shaved 80w off my server power usage... when idle! That's a lot of power to save. I did the math and I figured I'd break even at about the 2.5 year mark.

Keep in mind that once you start using FreeNAS you'll want it to do more and more and more. I had no jails when I started and I had no intention of using any jails at all. Now I'm running close to 10 jails with various workloads. I can guarantee you that my old 1366 Xeon could not have kept up with the workload I have now from the jails. So some planning ahead for potential future expansion is a good idea.

If you knew for 100% certainty you'd never want to run any jails or plugins you'd probably be fine for performance with the old CPU(I could do over 1GB/sec when scrubbing my pool on the 1366 Xeon). But the other aspects such as expected lifespan, power usage, etc make me not consider it for a good long-term product.

 

[alexg]

psdynpt,

You better check your order. Amazon was selling TS140 with 4GB ECC memory from ComputerUpgradeKing. Mine definitely has 4gb ECC

 

[9C1 Newbee]

I started out with a Dell T105 I already had. I went ahead and dumped money into 8 gigs of ram for it. It wasn't 4 months until I scrapped it and went with a whole new quality unit. I'd sure love to have that $200 back I wasted. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. You know the weight of your wallet better than anybody here.

 

[desiknow]

AlexG, would you mind posting a link to the TS140 you saw with ECC?

Thanks!

 

[psdynpt]

psdynpt,
You better check your order. Amazon was selling TS140 with 4GB ECC memory from ComputerUpgradeKing. Mine definitely has 4gb ECC

AlexG, would you mind posting a link to the TS140 you saw with ECC?

It's now $350 US on Amazon, with 4 GB ECC: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F6EK9J2/?tag=ozlp-20
But, you can still get the same exact model on TigerDirect for $279 US, but with the 4 GB non-ECC, which I did. Presumably, that RAM in non-ECC, but I will know for sure when I get the box, it may just have been mis-labeled.

Either way, if you add a 8 gb ECC to an existing 4 gb ECC (single chip), aren't you disabling the dual channel memory and forcing the system into a single channel memory mode?

 

[psdynpt]

Personally, I think so. Most people are looking to build a system that will last them at least 3 years. I wouldn't want to use 5 year old hardware, hope to save some dough, and expect it to actually last 3 more years. Good quality stuff might last that long, but I wouldn't bet money on it.
In my case, I went from a first gen 1366 xeon(low end) to an E3-1230v2 and shaved 80w off my server power usage... when idle! That's a lot of power to save. I did the math and I figured I'd break even at about the 2.5 year mark.

Good point, thank you. I tend to use my pc's for 5 years +, now that they get outdated slower, than in the 1990's (when I upgraded once every 3 years). Still using my 7 year-old Thecus 5200 (upgraded WD RE drives after 5 years, just to be safe), still using my 5 year-old i7 CPU /mobo. I wish my cell phones could last this long :)..

Keep in mind that once you start using FreeNAS you'll want it to do more and more and more. I had no jails when I started and I had no intention of using any jails at all. Now I'm running close to 10 jails with various workloads. I can guarantee you that my old 1366 Xeon could not have kept up with the workload I have now from the jails. So some planning ahead for potential future expansion is a good idea.

If you knew for 100% certainty you'd never want to run any jails or plugins you'd probably be fine for performance with the old CPU(I could do over 1GB/sec when scrubbing my pool on the 1366 Xeon). But the other aspects such as expected lifespan, power usage, etc make me not consider it for a good long-term product.

Great point, can you please give an example of some things (jails or plug-ins) that you didn't originally think of, but ended up using?

 

[desiknow]

So, I am a newbee. I just purchased a Synology DS214Play.
I mainly want a unit to run Plex, storage, and backups for all of my Systems at home which are about three.
I love some of the functionality this Synology Disc Station has in their interface by the place transcoding has left me wanting. The transcoding on DS has not been anywhere near as good as running Plex server on my Mac Mini.
I just found out about FreeNAS a few days ago and I'm now thinking about purchasing the Levono box mentioned above since it's right in my price range and returning the Synology.

Thoughts?

 

[psdynpt]

So, I am a newbee. I just purchased a Synology DS214Play.
I mainly want a unit to run Plex, storage, and backups for all of my Systems at home which are about three.
I love some of the functionality this Synology Disc Station has in their interface by the place transcoding has left me wanting. The transcoding on DS has not been anywhere near as good as running Plex server on my Mac Mini.
I just found out about FreeNAS a few days ago and I'm now thinking about purchasing the Levono box mentioned above since it's right in my price range and returning the Synology.

Thoughts?

Generally speaking, the big plus of NAS systems or a true NAS DYI box - super-easy physical access to the drives, small size, visual front-panel indicators of the NAS health. Downside - more expensive and less power per $ spent, compared to the DYI, plus somewhat less future proof.

So, if I had more money, I would still go for a DIY NAS w/FreeNAS, but would buy one of those cool NAS cases - hot swappable drive bays, better ventilation, small ITX form factor.