Active cooler on the Atom C3758 SoC?

[coolnodje]

I'm looking at buying a new motherboard, and the Supermicro A2SDi-H-TF seems to be the best value/price for my needs here in Europe.
But I just can't figure out if I'll be able to keep it passively cooled with a SilverStone D380 chassis, with no specific airflow directed on the chip.

I see official TrueNAS mini boxes ship with a cooler, I see the AsRock Rack equivalent motherboard C3758D4I-4L ship with a cooler as well, and I see some posts here where people have had to add a cooler on it as well.

If there's no chance I can get it up and running without a cooler, then I may be better off with a newer Supermicro X11 series board: the X11SDV-4C-TLN2F is only slightly more expensive (+45€) and comes with a Xeon D-2123IT, significantly more beefy afaict, for which you HAVE to add a cooler for sure.
If I need to do the extra work of adding a cooler on a heatsink that does not accept one, then why not do it on this one?

Incidentaly, looking at the ASRockRack C3758D4I-4L board, I realize the price tag is a full 120€ less than the Supermicro equivalent A2SDi-H-TF. And it's got a cooler (that I probably will have to replace with a more silent one, but at least the screws are available on the heatsink already). But no 10Gb NIC. Adding a Chelsio T520 in order to get about the same feature would probably make it the same proce.
I'm trying to replace a failing C2550D4I, so I was looking at Supermicro as a more reliable option.

Any tip on this besides my original question welcome :)

 

[Etorix]

First, get another case! DS-380 is an absolute pain to work with and is very bad at cooling 3.5" HDDs.

Note that C3758D4I-4L only had 1 GbE while A2SDi-H-TF has 10 GbE. 120 E is a very fair price for an Intel 10 GbE NIC. Otherwise, there is the A2SDi-LN4F— but having 10 GbE seems more future-proof.

Replacing a Supermicro built-in fan (model with a "+") requires taking off the whole heatsink assembly to access the screws on the the bottom.
Unplug the original noisy fan. Run CPU-Burn or stress-ng with the most aggressive settings. Power off and carefully wiggle the hot heatsink to loosen the thermal material and take off the heatsink. Let cool, replace fan and put in place with new thermal material. Keep fingers crossed that you don't destroy your board in the process.
It seems the AsRockRack board has its fans screws on the top, but the best solution is still to buy a board with a passive heatsink and slap a Noctua NF-A6x25 onto it, secured with two strips of tape on the sides. This trick works at least for any X10SDV (Xeon D-1500) or A2SDi (Atom C3000) board; X11SDV may be more demanding.

 

[coolnodje]

thanks for the trick! Using rubber mounting pins/ fasteners seems awesome, will look into a Noctua that could fit on the very large heatsink of the X11SDV-4C-TLN2F.

I've been adding Noctua fans on the SilverStone D380 and it's been behaving fine (and silent) ever since (a bit less so in summer, but I tolerate HDD going in the 40's Celcius).

Looking into other cases maybe your best piece of advice though!
If I go this route, I'd have to redo my motherboard market study, since I'd not use mITX format anymore. Duh!
I'll sleep on this for the weekend....

"Are there any non rack mounted chassis that would provide an airflow on the CPU heatsink" becomes the question then!
The X11SDV Supermicro board seem to be all designed to be fitted in such specific chassis.

 

[Paul van der Zwan]

I agree with Etorix that airflow in the DS-380 is terrible. I have one with C2550D4I ( 3 years old and still working).
It's disk bays are filled with 6* WD RED 4TB and 2 WD RED 8 BT which were running quite hot.
But I have found some baffles on thingiverse ( https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2182572 ) and 3d printed those.
That dropped the drive temperatures by about 20C.

The 40+ drives are the 8TBs the others the 4TB, ambient temp is about 20C.

Code:

$ for i in 1 0 4 5 3 10 2 9 ; do sudo smartctl -a /dev/ada$i |grep Temperature_Celsius; done
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   116   094   000    Old_age   Always       -       36
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0002   151   151   000    Old_age   Always       -       43 (Min/Max 22/72)
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   118   092   000    Old_age   Always       -       34
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   119   092   000    Old_age   Always       -       33
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   117   094   000    Old_age   Always       -       35
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0002   154   154   000    Old_age   Always       -       42 (Min/Max 16/68)
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   114   092   000    Old_age   Always       -       38
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   117   094   000    Old_age   Always       -       35

 

[Etorix]

"Are there any non rack mounted chassis that would provide an airflow on the CPU heatsink" becomes the question then!
The X11SDV Supermicro board seem to be all designed to be fitted in such specific chassis.

In a non-rack chassis, or for quieter systems, just put a fan on the passive heatsink. The passive coolers are designed for server airflow (fast and furious fans moving a lot of air in tight space); the active coolers have noisy, whiny fans.

Mini-ITX fits in larger cases. A larger case could allow to look at the Flex-ATX members of the X10/X11SDV families but I wouldn't look much further than that. Unless you need CPU power for jails/VMs, a D-2100 looks like overkill, and overspending, to replace an Atom C2000.

 

[coolnodje]

Just looking at your last message @Etorix .

Precisely, I was looking at an Atom C3000 for a C2000 replacement, which looks reasonable, and probably the only option for anything newer.
But as mentioned, comparing a C3758 and a D-2123IT, it turned out the price is about the same.

Additionaly, I now have an official confirmation from Supermicro that both A2SDi-H-TF and X11SDV-4C-TLN2F need active cooling in a small factor chassis. And that Supermicro has parts (active heatsink SNK-C0111AP4L for X11SDV-4C-TLN2F, and SNK-C0057A4L for A2SDi-H-TF) but don't support adding them to the MB. Warranty is void if you do it yourself. A chicken and egg situation, and a no-go in the end for these boards, unless one accepts to cancel the warranty.

Going for one of the few Supermicro MB with a + option including active cooling isn't an option either, because they exist only for more beefy CPUs.

I need some CPU for jails /VM.
I'm planning to use 10Gbe network capacity to use Truenas as iSCSI storage for more beefy machines that will hold VM/containers.
But that's way down the line.

I'd have to go the D-1500 series maybe (not sure up to which amount of cores passive cooling is enough) or go for a low C3000 series and add a 10Gbe network card.

NB: I'm still looking into Noctua possible rubber mounting pins/ fasteners support for the A2SDi-H-TF and X11SDV-4C-TLN2F

 

[Etorix]

As you can see in my systems, I have a C3758 and a D-1528 Supermicro board with passive coolers in "consumer" cases. Both have a Noctua A6x25 slapped on the heatsink (as in the ServeTheHome article linked in my previous message) and secured with two strips of gaffer tape on the side of the cooler. CPU temps well in check. And if I ever have to send the boards for service, I only need to take off the fans and clean possible traces of adhesive.

IMHO, it makes little sense to add a 10 GbE card to a "low C3000" board rather than going for a "mid/high C3000" board with integrated 10 GbE.
The X10SDV family can be found second-hand… with some patience in our European market.
Another option for a small server in quiet consumer case would be to use a Core i3-8xxx/9xxx (easy to cool) on C242/C246 chipset (for ECC) with an add-on card for 10 GbE. But if a HBA is needed for the desired number of drives, that means two add-on cards, so two PCIe slots and at least microATX size.

 

[coolnodje]

Thanks, very helpful.
I understand better now that I took a look at your system signature!
I thought the Noctua rubber pin trick would only work with the motherboard laying horizontally. But if adding gaffer tape is enough to get it stick to the heatsink, it def. sounds like a solution.

BTW I think there's a mistake in your signature: X11SDV-6C-TLN4F should be X10SDV-6C-TLN4F.
What about the 12*3.84GB SSD in your Silverstone box? Are they that small?

 

[Etorix]

Signature corrected. The SSD are the size of regular 2.5" HDDs (probably with a lot of air inside). They make for expensive storage, but with patience I assembled the collection at acceptable prices from eBay.

Note that even the horizontally mounted D-1528 has its Noctua fan taped in place, so I can move the box around without worrying. The trick works well because the fan exactly matches the footprint of the heatsink.

Then, if you're satisfied with HDD cooling in the DS-380 (I wasn't) and the corresponding noise (I wasn't either) and want to keep the case, I think your motherboard choice is done. MiniITX X10SDV boards provide only 6 SATA ports. X11SDV has 8 SATA for the main HDD cage, but no more and it looks like fitting a fan will be a very tight fit with RAM slots. A2SDi-H-TF, with its 12 ports and on-board 10 GbE, is the most reasonable choice; same thread count as D-2123, at the same base frequency—and I doubt jails/VMs have a use for AVX extensions.

 

[coolnodje]

You sum it up pretty well.
I will get another case and the Fractal Design ones you use seem to be a good option, but there's no reason for me to throw away the DS380.
So you sum up my options pretty well :)
The A2SDi-H-TF with a Noctua A6x25 it should be.

 

[Etorix]

6 drives in the Node 304 make a low but audible buzz. The system is easily quieter than a loaded DS380, but still limited to MiniITX.

The Node 804 opens up FlexATX and MicroATX options, but 8-10 drives in there, with the open top, are very audible and clearly dominate over fan noise. Such a system may not be suitable for the typically cramped Parisian housing.

 

[coolnodje]

speaking of housing, I may well be the happy owner of a basement soon!
I have to move there first to make sure of the electricity and humidity condition, but if suitable I think I could start considering the rackmounted chassis!

BTW, I stumble upon a couple of thread where people were actually trying to make rackmounted server silent. It's apparently possible!

 

[Ericloewe]

Note for small fan less SoCs: they always need airflow. If the chassis isn't enough, then add fans.

 

[coolnodje]

Note for small fan less SoCs: they always need airflow. If the chassis isn't enough, then add fans.

Probably not nowadays anymore, but ASROCK C2550D4I was (and still is) able to run fanless in a bad airflow chassis.

Any newly produced fanless SoCs that can work as is, should probably be listed somewhere in the Hardware Recommendation document.
I feel it's something people are really looking for when using small chassis that have to sit in the living room.

My 2c

 

[volothamp]

Just looking at your last message @Etorix .

Precisely, I was looking at an Atom C3000 for a C2000 replacement, which looks reasonable, and probably the only

Additionaly, I now have an official confirmation from Supermicro that both A2SDi-H-TF and X11SDV-4C-TLN2F need active cooling in a small factor chassis.

what do you mean? I have that exact board running in a silver stone cs280 with two noctua fans and it works fine, albeit a bit warm. I’m only using crucial mx500 SSD

Is supermicro saying that you need fan in the case?
Thank you

 

[coolnodje]

hey @volothamp , sounds like a very useful piece of feedback!

Which board are you using in your CS280? I guess the A2SDi-H-TF ?
I mean that I've seen reports the X11SDV-4C-TLN2F was impossible to run more than 5mns without active cooling - or adequate airflow.
And I was unsure but apparently the A2SDi-H-TF also needs active cooling, less so than the other though due to a much lower TDP (I think 25W).

Supermicro doens't say anything, it's just information I've gathered mostly from this forum and ServeTheHome. Hence my thread here to try to confirm the need for an active CPU cooler.

The fact that you don't use spinning drives may play a part in your setup not needing a CPU cooler.
Do you monitor the CPU temp though? Is is actively used? Do you run Jails/VM on your setup?

 

[volothamp]

hey @volothamp , sounds like a very useful piece of feedback!

Which board are you using in your CS280? I guess the A2SDi-H-TF ?
I mean that I've seen reports the X11SDV-4C-TLN2F was impossible to run more than 5mns without active cooling - or adequate airflow.
And I was unsure but apparently the A2SDi-H-TF also needs active cooling, less so than the other though due to a much lower TDP (I think 25W).

Supermicro doens't say anything, it's just information I've gathered mostly from this forum and ServeTheHome. Hence my thread here to try to confirm the need for an active CPU cooler.

The fact that you don't use spinning drives may play a part in your setup not needing a CPU cooler.
Do you monitor the CPU temp though? Is is actively used? Do you run Jails/VM on your setup?

Sorry I misquoted

Yes I'm using it with a A2SDi-H-TF with a C3758, I bought it for the 10gbe I didn't want to add another NIC

The server is used every day, single users for the Time Machine backups and the photo library on iSCSI. As for the temperature, I get 70C average but since it's in my living room I set IPMI to very low noise (Set Fan to PUE2 (Power Utilization Effectiveness) Speed)

It doesn't help that I put it in a drawer under the TV, even though it's opened behind.

In the CS280 I also removed the 2.5 bay, here's some pictures of when I replaced the stock fans to noctua. These are the only two fans. It's a very tight fit

PS3 is no longer there though

Hope this helps somehow

 

[coolnodje]

Thanks for sharing.

I would wager the absence of spinning drive really helps keep the temperature low in the box.
Probably not to the point it would render active cooling necessary if you were using some though.

Fair enough, and very good news. I'll try the A2SDi-H-TF with the default passive cooling and will see if I need to strap a Noctua A6x25 on it as indicated by Etorix above

 

[Etorix]

All Atom C3000 or Xeon D need airflow. Boards with passive coolers are expected to get it from server-style case fans, with a duct over the heatsink—or just the typical tightness of a low-height server case guiding airflow front-to-back through the heatsink. Consumer cases such as the Silverstone CS/DS do NOT fit this pattern because airflow is not straight through. DS380 is side-to-back, with a severely restrictive HDD cage in the way; CS280 appears to be front-to-side, with no exhaust on the back (except the PSU, which, as shown, sucks air from the top), so there is a distinct possibility that fresh air exits without passing on the CPU and NIC.
Boards with 10 GbE such as A2SDi-H-TF further need airflow on the NIC heatsink: These run hot! (@volothamp, can you log into IMPI and check temperature on your NIC?)

I definitely suggest that both of you put a Noctua NF-A6x25 on the CPU on your Silverstone cases. It will drop CPU temp by about 30°C and also ensure that at least some air is moving close to the NIC—all without being heard.
Fan control scripts also work great on these boards.

 

[volothamp]

All Atom C3000 or Xeon D need airflow. Boards with passive coolers are expected to get it from server-style case fans, with a duct over the heatsink—or just the typical tightness of a low-height server case guiding airflow front-to-back through the heatsink. Consumer cases such as the Silverstone CS/DS do NOT fit this pattern because airflow is not straight through. DS380 is side-to-back, with a severely restrictive HDD cage in the way; CS280 appears to be front-to-side, with no exhaust on the back (except the PSU, which, as shown, sucks air from the top), so there is a distinct possibility that fresh air exits without passing on the CPU and NIC.
Boards with 10 GbE such as A2SDi-H-TF further need airflow on the NIC heatsink: These run hot! (@volothamp, can you log into IMPI and check temperature on your NIC?)

I definitely suggest that both of you put a Noctua NF-A6x25 on the CPU on your Silverstone cases. It will drop CPU temp by about 30°C and also ensure that at least some air is moving close to the NIC—all without being heard.
Fan control scripts also work great on these boards.

Thanks for the suggestion. I might consider also getting a slightly bigger case such as the CS381, it should be easier to put a fan near the CPU and NIC with that case