Supermicro/Xeon for a Desktop Workstation?

[ewhac]

Even for this forum, this may be off-topic:

My desktop rig is seven years old, and I am at last starting to notice its age. I was more or less clued in to its age when I started making Let's Play/Drown Out videos (link available upon request), and was bothered less by the geological slowness of the process than the fact that I can't economically buy RAM for it any longer. So: Time to spec out a new machine.

Seven years ago, you specced out the basics of a new machine by picking a CPU vendor and speed, picking a motherboard compatible with the CPU vendor, and grabbing a few sticks of RAM. Since then, Intel has created a twelve-dimensional matrix of CPUs, a phalanx of motherboard controllers, and a bevy of DDR3 speeds (with DDR4 starting to appear). Just trying to sort out the CPU offerings alone is mind-numbing...

When I started thinking about what I wanted from the machine -- high reliability, long-term expandability, good gaming and number crunching performance -- I started to realize that I should probably look at server-class components. "Hey," I thought, "Those FreeNAS guys are always flogging Supermicro; wonder what they've got?"

After looking through their site, it looks like they have some boards that will work. However, looking at the specs leads me to worry that going this route might lead to me over-buying the machine in some way. I also can't find a clear statement of the relative gaming performance of a Xeon versus a Core-i{3,5,7}. Yes, I know Xeons are more expensive, and some Core-i chips are overclockable, but all else being equal (clock speed, L1 and L2 cache size), does Xeon performance differ from the Core-i series?

As I pored over this stuff, I was sort of drifting in the vague direction of a Xeon E5 with four or more cores with ThreadHype on a motherboard starting with 1600MHz RAM but could take an 1866MHz upgrade later.

And then I found this: http://www.supermicro.com/products/nfo/gaming.cfm

While I'm a total sucker for decorative lighting, I'm not actually all that enamored of this offering, since it doesn't support ECC RAM, and might not support Xeon CPUs, either. It also speaks of overclocking, which is not a thing I do, since reliability trumps speed (it is not necessary for me to get the wrong answers as quickly as possible). But it kinda muddied the waters again.

So I guess my vague meander-y question is: Is going server-class a waste of money when the machine is principally going to be used for gaming, video editing, and software development? I'm looking for ECC RAM support mostly out of paranoia. But my seven-year-old rig doesn't have ECC support, and I've never had a problem (that I know of).

 

[Ericloewe]

There isn't any gaming stuff that uses ECC.

You can get a workstation motherboard and a Xeon (Xeons are as fast as equivalent desktop parts, but ECC is said to be marginally slower). It'll work, but you won't get the looks and some more gaming-oriented stuff.

 

[DrKK]

I have had similar thoughts. And I came to a strong conclusion.

Ultimately, I think the answer to your question is "no", you don't want "server grade" or server-oriented hardware. Server grade equipment gets to be that way by not only enhancing certain parts (chipsets, NICs), but by scorched-Earthing other parts (audio, etc.), onboard video, that you may find useful. You are losing things you might want, in exchange for things that, logically, you cannot make a strong case for in a gaming/general-purpose rig.

The real problem in your vision is the "long term expandability", which I take to mean is this sort of very annoying personal economic philosophy: "I consider it a personal victory when I can keep the same hardware around for 7 or 10 years when these other nerds are buying new stuff every 2-3 years." I think that philosophy is passe, sir. Hardware is now cheap enough that it no longer represents a considerable investment of resources (even for people of modest incomes), while the risk of doing this is the same as it always has been. To my view, you would go to this trouble to buy this 'server' oriented hardware for your desktop machine, and then you will find yourself philosophically locked in (because you went to this trouble ostensibly, for example, to keep the hardware for 7-10 years), and you will gain nothing. You will tell yourself that you have gained reliability in the form of ECC memory and server grade components, but you'll gain nothing, in the practical world.

So I vote for "no", on the following grounds:

1) I don't think you accomplish what you want to accomplish
2) And even if you did, I don't think you actually want to accomplish that.

I think it's a waste of money. There's a reason that most of us buy server-grade equipment precisely for servers, and the same equipment as everyone else for our everyday machines.

My two cents.

 

[anodos]

The only people I know who use workstation components are professional A/V guys. Basically, in their line of work absolute data integrity through the whole production process is a must. They're also rocking 32GB RAM, 10GE, and ungodly powerful video cards. Would I like a system like theirs? Absolutely! Would I pay money for it? Heck no!

 

[Ericloewe]

The only people I know who use workstation components are professional A/V guys. Basically, in their line of work absolute data integrity through the whole production process is a must. They're also rocking 32GB RAM, 10GE, and ungodly powerful video cards. Would I like a system like theirs? Absolutely! Would I pay money for it? Heck no!

Medical imaging workstations (though those tend to be ancient, by server/workstation/desktop standards...) and scientific stuff as well.

 

[Starpulkka]

Well i think money on ecc memory never goes wasted even on windows machine, some years ago i got mem error on ecc memory and windows telled it, (but i dont remember anymore was it multibit or single bit error but still it helps.) As for supermicro gaming on windows might be good to prepare some serious hardware compatibility testing, as all review sites had constant bluescreens on supermicro boards. I remember it was a nightmare then, but im sure things have progressed more stable these days.

 

[jgreco]

[I started composing this back when it was the first response, heh]

You know all that paddling-against-the-current I accuse people of when they pick good gaming boards and try to make a NAS out of it? You're doing the same thing, just in the other direction (and the current is still against you). However, it is less-bad in your situation because winding up with things like an Intel NIC work in your favor.

Server-class vs gaming-class is an interesting question. I would say that at the high end of the gaming class, you get mainboard manufacturers who are lightening the wallets of gamers; look at this $462 jewel. But here's the thing - if you were going to be doing a quartet of high power graphics cards, you're more likely to not have any trouble with that. You also get other stuff like audio, etc., which is hard to come by these days.

There are workstation class boards that definitely support ECC and other quality features. You probably don't need the most expensive of those, but do apply a similar style of selection logic, looking for reputable manufacturers, good reviews by competent reviewers, and the feature set you want. You can definitely get "better than cheap-ass PC" grade components and you will benefit from doing so if you choose wisely.

 

[Fraoch]

Xeon processors are great on the desktop. In the U.S. you're lucky in that the 4-core Xeons seem to be priced lower than equivalent locked Core i7s (not so in other countries). So if you were looking at a locked Core i7, you might as well look at a Xeon. And more or less all consumer LGA 1150 chipsets support them.

In regards to server motherboards in the desktop, that's been capably answered in this thread already.

I notice that Supermicro has quite a few boards based on consumer chipsets and even a few gaming boards complete with black colour schemes and fancy heatsinks However here they're competing in a very busy and cut-throat market with lots of well-established competitors with decades of experience serving that market.

As always, buy based on the features you need and based on price. Supermicro's boards show no particular advantage here. It's obvious they studied the market because the choice of parts is about the same as consumer boards. However they won't win based on price and they just don't have the reputation in the consumer space that their competitors do here - they seem kind of like a "me too" company versus, say, ASUS. Have you ever heard l337 g4m3rz going on about their awesome Supermicro boards? :D

Incidentally I'm just about to build a UTM. I wanted a mini-ITX VESA mount build. Mini-ITX boards are everywhere, from every manufacturer, so I thought it would be easy to choose one. However UTMs need dual LAN ports and many small VESA mount cases generally don't allow an expansion card, so they must be onboard. Not too many have dual onboard LAN ports, and the few that do seem to have dual Realtek LANs (which is just as bad for a UTM as for a FreeNAS server). Interestingly I had to go back to Supermicro to get dual onboard Intel ports:

http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Core/Q87/X10SLV-Q.cfm

 

[ewhac]

Thank you all kindly for your feedback so far.

It might be worth pointing out that I will do, shall we say, economically sub-optimal things for entirely ideological reasons. For example, because I was a massive Amiga fanboy, I had a certain investment in SCSI drives, and knew that IDE was cheap garbage and wanted nothing to do with it. Thus, I bought all SCSI gear for about 15 years, well beyond when it was economically reasonable to do so. It was only with my current rig when SATA had been introduced that I felt comfortable going mainstream. I finally pulled the SCSI controller out of my machine less than a year ago and replaced the remaining SCSI spindles with a single 500GB SATA drive, which cost less than $100.

Ultimately, I think the answer to your question is "no", you don't want "server grade" or server-oriented hardware. Server grade equipment gets to be that way by not only enhancing certain parts (chipsets, NICs), but by scorched-Earthing other parts (audio, etc.), onboard video, that you may find useful.

I have always sneered at onboard audio, and consequently always budgeted for a sound card. Same for onboard video (I'm an NVIDIA guy). So having a mobo without those things doesn't really bother me. However, sitting here now thinking about it, it's possible Moore's Law has made onboard audio vaguely respectable, so I'll give it another look. It also doesn't help that PCIe sound cards not made by Creative Labs look to be much thinner on the ground these days...

Hardware is now cheap enough that it no longer represents a considerable investment of resources (even for people of modest incomes), while the risk of doing this is the same as it always has been. To my view, you would go to this trouble to buy this 'server' oriented hardware for your desktop machine, and then you will find yourself philosophically locked in (because you went to this trouble ostensibly, for example, to keep the hardware for 7-10 years), and you will gain nothing. You will tell yourself that you have gained reliability in the form of ECC memory and server grade components, but you'll gain nothing, in the practical world.

Well, there's more than just upfront cost. For example, there's also the waste issue -- my rig is still chugging along playing games and churning out videos, and not sitting in a landfill somewhere leaching toxic chemicals. But also there's the time involved in performing a full system replacement -- re-partitioning the drives, installing the operating systems, installing all the apps, and migrating the data. The pain Windows gratuitously inflicts on you when doing this has made this a thing to avoid if possible (which is a big reason why I'm still running WinXP). Debian Linux inflicts far less pain, but it's still a hassle.

You know all that paddling-against-the-current I accuse people of when they pick good gaming boards and try to make a NAS out of it? You're doing the same thing, just in the other direction (and the current is still against you). However, it is less-bad in your situation because winding up with things like an Intel NIC work in your favor.

Ah, that reminds me: Budget $30 for an Intel NIC :) .

Server-class vs gaming-class is an interesting question. I would say that at the high end of the gaming class, you get mainboard manufacturers who are lightening the wallets of gamers; look at this $462 jewel.

I always read the one-star reviews first. That's pretty hilarious.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point: "Gaming" oriented products seem to spend an inordinate amount of effort on marketing and industrial design, squirting jets of gluey testosterone in my face to show how extreme and a\/\/3s0m3 they are, which tends to obscure whether or not they're actually any good. Server-grade stuff doesn't go in for that (at least not in the same way), making it easier to pick through the offerings.

But here's the thing - if you were going to be doing a quartet of high power graphics cards, you're more likely to not have any trouble with that.

See, that seems counter-intuitive to me. If you want to do something weird that pushes performance out to the edges (and yes, I consider SLI weird), it seems to me you're going to have much more trouble on a consumer-grade board where they're trying to grind out cost everywhere they can, whereas my perception is that a server-grade board has had some effort spent ensuring the board does more than merely boot once, and consequently costs more.

I've also traditionally leaned against SLI since performance increase tracks poorly with price increase.

Xeon processors are great on the desktop. In the U.S. you're lucky in that the 4-core Xeons seem to be priced lower than equivalent locked Core i7s (not so in other countries). So if you were looking at a locked Core i7, you might as well look at a Xeon. And more or less all consumer LGA 1150 chipsets support them.

Noted; thank you.

 

[cyberjock]

I upgraded my desktop 6-9 months ago. When I did that I had the same opinion you did. "Maybe server grade is the way to go for ECC and stuff" I told myself. After a slap by jgreco with a very short answer of "desktop hardware for desktops, server hardware for servers" I realized I was just being the same level of stupid as the guys with gaming motherboards trying to run FreeNAS. So I bought myself a nice desktop motherboard and I'm very happy. ;)

 

[Ericloewe]

I upgraded my desktop 6-9 months ago. When I did that I had the same opinion you did. "Maybe server grade is the way to go for ECC and stuff" I told myself. After a slap by jgreco with a very short answer of "desktop hardware for desktops, server hardware for servers" I realized I was just being the same level of stupid as the guys with gaming motherboards trying to run FreeNAS. So I bought myself a nice desktop motherboard and I'm very happy. ;)

Speaking of motherboards, just how stable was the ol' X58A-UD3R with a Xeon and RDIMMs?

 

[cyberjock]

Speaking of motherboards, just how stable was the ol' X58A-UD3R with a Xeon and RDIMMs?

For me it was rock solid as a testing system. I still use it once in a while as a testing platform too.

 

[mjws00]

LOL. I bought two of the "pro" version of that jewel up above. Nice boards ;). One of the first solid socket 2011 entries.

I'm getting old I guess. I'm likely to throw a supermicro in my box as a workstation. Simply for the features and expandability. But I do expect it to do mild server duty in addition to desktop use. Consider it scale-out. Guess I got signed up for a level of stupid. I will continue to blame cyberjock and jgreco for the Supermicro assimilation.

I do a separate gaming rig for my son. Mid-range mobo. Bang for the buck gaming chip (i5-i7). Fast graphics card. Done.

I suspect if you're on 7 year old gear and XP, the gaming demands aren't really that high, and pretty much anything will be a step forward. My gear works more than it plays these days unfortunately.

 

[jgreco]

Do note that I heartily approve of ECC for desktop systems, but this is a bit unusual and hard to find.

 

[Roman]

I used Supermicro X9SAE with 32 GB ECC unbuffered RAM and Intel Xeon E3-1275 V2 as workstation a while ago (but not for gaming). This system was excellent. Neither cheesy board nor pure server board but server-grade components (server-like BIOS, Intel NICs, USB 3.0, chipset, even layout). It was very similar to Fujitsu Celsius C620.

 

[jgreco]

I always read the one-star reviews first. That's pretty hilarious.

That's actually good policy, it often works out to me muttering "Idiot," "Idiot," "oh, that's good to know," "Idiot" ... nuggets of useful information buried amongst the idiocy.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point: "Gaming" oriented products seem to spend an inordinate amount of effort on marketing and industrial design, squirting jets of gluey testosterone in my face to show how extreme and a\/\/3s0m3 they are, which tends to obscure whether or not they're actually any good. Server-grade stuff doesn't go in for that (at least not in the same way), making it easier to pick through the offerings.

I'd agree with that, which is another reason to avoid the high end gaming boards.

See, that seems counter-intuitive to me. If you want to do something weird that pushes performance out to the edges (and yes, I consider SLI weird), it seems to me you're going to have much more trouble on a consumer-grade board where they're trying to grind out cost everywhere they can, whereas my perception is that a server-grade board has had some effort spent ensuring the board does more than merely boot once, and consequently costs more.

But the server boards have spent effort ensuring that the board works with HBA's, NIC's, RAID controllers, and server-y hardware. Getting details like handling multiple video cards right is a different challenge, and I have no faith that a server board manufacturer would have put significant effort into that, or that - if a problem appears with boards out in the field - that they're going to put lots of effort into reproducing and fixing it, because really if you're the only person that reports the problem, the attitude could well be "meh, sorry that isn't supported" because they think they can get away with that. That's not saying anything bad about Supermicro or any other vendor, but usually when you have a customer who is doing something strange and it doesn't work for them, how much effort are you going to go to?

I've also traditionally leaned against SLI since performance increase tracks poorly with price increase.

Noted; thank you.

Yeah, I haven't really run anything that needs a dedicated graphics card in many years now.

I used Supermicro X9SAE with 32 GB ECC unbuffered RAM and Intel Xeon E3-1275 V2 as workstation a while ago (but not for gaming). This system was excellent. Neither cheesy board nor pure server board but server-grade components (server-like BIOS, Intel NICs, USB 3.0, chipset, even layout). It was very similar to Fujitsu Celsius C620.

Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing that I'd prefer for my desktop, were I building myself a new one, which I ought to do. The X10 update to that board actually adds a PCI slot for ...??????!?? but the X10SAT looks very attractive.

 

[Roman]

I used Supermicro X9SAE with 32 GB ECC unbuffered RAM and Intel Xeon E3-1275 V2

You could even run OS X on it with compatible AMD Radeon plugged in and VT-d disabled. Audio controller was also quite good. The X9SAE is basically a tailored server board for professional desktop use (IPMI removed, desktop-relevant features added). The Asus P8C WS is rather a desktop board with some professional features added plus a lot of marketing.

The X10 isn't, unfortunately, as good as its predecessor. (from what I've seen and read so far)

 

[DJ9]

The X9SAE is the same board I run on my workstation with a 1230 v2, 16GB of ECC memory. I tossed in a GTX 750Ti SC and it actually plays games via Steam on Linux well. Also no issues with FreeBSD or PC-BSD. I never got around trying Windows, mainly cause I'm to cheap to pay for another license and I hate loading drivers / updates forever.

 

[Roman]

Works fine with Windows. But there is a driver issue with the L NIC under Win8/Server2012. Only Microsoft driver can be used. The other ML chipset NIC accepts the Intel driver though. And you cannot team them (LACP / static), even if AMT is disabled. Windows 7 is okay with this hardware. Disable ALPM by all means, especially if using SSDs. Detachable SATA works and staggered spin up, too.

 

[AlainD]

Hi

While searching about the mentioned MB's I came by the "ASUS P9D WS" and that has an extra pce 2.0 x16 (internal x4). That's actualy nice to have if the pce x4 SSD's would become affordable.
I didn't see any disadvantages while looking at the specs and reviews.

Getting a 1150 xeon with ECC-ram for my main computer becomes something "in reach".