Preparing for first build

[trentk10]

I have been looking into building a system for a while. I keep going back and forth about whether or not our family needs a nas or just some more hard drives to back stuff up. I am sure is the case for most people, it seems the need for storage is growing and growing.

Currently have a desktop PC that I put together with 3 1 TB hard drives that basically have 3 copies of everything (everything being photos, documents, music, some video, and back ups). The hard drives are basically half full, but I could fill them up pretty easily. We have a bunch of photos that we would like to scan in order to have digital copies, and a filing cabinet that needs to be cleaned up, and scans made of things we would like to make sure do not get lost in some sort of disaster.

We have 2 college age kids with laptop and smartphone each, that use space on the desktop PC for saving whatever they need from their phones and laptops. I know eventually they will move out of the house, but that is a few years away. Also, have 2 grade school age kids, each that have a school issue i-pad type device. My wife and I each have smartphones, that dump photos into our storage (her a lot more than me).

I have picked out parts on newegg that meet the hardware requirements, and could put together a nice system for about $1200 that would have 4-3TB hdd's and get by for a while I suppose in a dedicated FreeNAS box. My concern on this is expansion. From what I have read, once your pool gets full, its easier to create a new pool of drives instead of trying to expand the current pool (I could be incorrect on this). With expansion in mind, I am wondering if its better to get a used rack mount unit from ebay that I can upgrade the hardware to meet the current FreeNAS requirements, and be set up to easily expand in the future. I think also, this would give me a place to set up back ups, instead of having a dedicated back up machine.

We also have 2 game systems used for netflix/hulu/amazon video and directv. Our network feels like an unorganized mosh pit, and I plan on upgrading/organizing it also. I also have 2 older desktop computers that I plan get up and running to give the younger kids something to experiment with (not connected to the internet, or limited connection at best).

As far as use on the freenas server, it would obviously be a cloud type device for everyone, a place to move recorded tv off of the directv receivers, store all of the data I talked about before, and perhaps with enough space, a CD and DVD storage for streaming in the house and back up of the hard copies. I would also use the FreeNAS server to handle all of the backups for everything (not inside the FreeNAS, but outside of it either on a separate part of the rack, or a dedicated back up box. I haven't looked into all of the possible uses of the FreeNAS plugins yet, so I am sure there are other things we could do as well.

I guess I am looking for suggestions for the best way to move forward, both for short term and long term. I don't want to put together a system, and in a year or two, have to rebuild it over again because I ran out of hard drive space. Thanks :)

(edit for parts add, thanks for the suggestion :) )
Parts for a dedicated freenas box:
CPU:Intel Xeon E3-1220V3 Haswell 3.1GHz LGA 1150 80W Server Processor BX80646E31220V3
Motherboard: SUPERMICRO MBD-X10SAE-O ATX Server Motherboard LGA 1150 Intel C226 DDR3 1600
4-hdd's: WD Red 3TB NAS Hard Disk Drive - 5400 RPM Class SATA 6Gb/s 64MB Cache 3.5 Inch - WD30EFRX
ssd:Kingston SSDNow V300 Series 2.5" 120GB SATA III Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) SV300S37A/120G
memory:Kingston 8GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM ECC Unbuffered DDR3 1600 Server Memory w/TS Model KVR16E11/8
PSU: I think 600W or 650W will be enough, make and model depends on case, which I havn't chosen yet.
Case: TBD

Parts for rack type set up:
TBD, many options on ebay to choose from.

 

[m0nkey_]

I suggest you share the list of components you've chosen, so you can get appropriate feedback. Also, welcome to the forums. :)

 

[GBillR]

Currently have a desktop PC that I put together with 3 1 TB hard drives that basically have 3 copies of everything (everything being photos, documents, music, some video, and back ups). The hard drives are basically half full, but I could fill them up pretty easily. We have a bunch of photos that we would like to scan in order to have digital copies, and a filing cabinet that needs to be cleaned up, and scans made of things we would like to make sure do not get lost in some sort of disaster.

You don't mention this, so I'll ask... do you keep anything offsite? You really should consider doing so--at least for the files you really don't want to lose in a natural disaster or fire.

I have picked out parts on newegg that meet the hardware requirements, and could put together a nice system for about $1200 that would have 4-3TB hdd's and get by for a while I suppose in a dedicated FreeNAS box. My concern on this is expansion. From what I have read, once your pool gets full, its easier to create a new pool of drives instead of trying to expand the current pool (I could be incorrect on this).

You may be a bit confused here. Take a look at cyberjock's document here (if you haven't already): https://forums.freenas.org/index.ph...ning-vdev-zpool-zil-and-l2arc-for-noobs.7775/

You can increase the size of the pool by adding another vdev. The issue is, the vdev you add should be the same configuration as the vdev you already have. So if you buy 4 disks and set them up in Z1 (not recommended for the drive size you are looking at) or Z2 (4 drives in Z2 is probably not an ideal solution as you will probably find), you would need to buy the same number of disks, create a new vdev, and add that vdev to your pool. OR, you could simply buy any number of disks and create a second pool, but management of the pools becomes more involved since you will have to create new datasets (think shares) on the new pool, and balance your storage manually (or create symlinks, which is a more advanced configuration (read easier to screw up and lose data unless you really know what you're doing).

Just my suggestion: If you are looking for future expansion, take a look at mirrored vdevs (either 2 or 3 drives if you are overly cautious). a 3 drive mirror is essentially what you are using today (albeit likely not configured that way, so you don't have the read speed advantages of a true mirror). I would start with a 2-disk mirror of affordable (3 or 4 TB) drives. If you need more storage, set up multiple 2-disk mirrored vdevs. Expansion then is simple. when you are ready, just throw in 2 more drives, create a new mirrored vdev, and add it to the existing pool. Simple. Expansion down the road doesn't require an outlay of cash for 4 or 5 drives.

Another equally viable option would be to setup a 5 disk z2 vdev and pool now. When you need more space, you can replace 1 drive at a time until all 5 are replaced. the disadvantage there is that the pool size will not increase until all of the drives have been replaced.

With expansion in mind, I am wondering if its better to get a used rack mount unit from ebay that I can upgrade the hardware to meet the current FreeNAS requirements, and be set up to easily expand in the future. I think also, this would give me a place to set up back ups, instead of having a dedicated back up machine.

Your call. I found that any atx tower with space for the number of disks I expect to ever have was a cheaper and better answer for me. Mine is the fractal R5, which has room for 11 3.5 drives and 2 (or 3?) 2.5 SSDs. More space than I personally need for my use.

... move recorded tv off of the directv receivers...

Is this possible? Did I miss that announcement?? Last I knew, directv locked down all of their dvrs.

As m0nkey_ stated... show us your parts list, and I am sure you'll hear back from those who have been here much longer than I

Good luck to you.

 

[trentk10]

Thanks for the link, that did help, and I had not read that before.

Using onedrive currently for offsite back up.

As far as directv goes, I figure if I can get it to stream to a pc, I can record it to a new place....maybe I am incorrect on this ??

Maybe a little more background, what got me kick started into seriously considering doing this project, was losing a hard drive about a month ago. I had never lost one before. I didn't lose anything I couldn't afford to lose, it was the drive in my PC that i had set up to install programs on. Led to research, which showed me my (then) current back up plan was completely inadequate. I had 1-1TB hard drive for data, and 2 older 120GB external drives for backups. Adding 2 new 1TB hard drives for data and back up is a recent temporary upgrade, and using onedrive is a recent addition also. I figure the freenas server is protection against hard drive failure, and a dedicated back up system is protection against freenas server failure. Offsite is protection against disaster.

 

[GBillR]

As far as directv goes, I figure if I can get it to stream to a pc, I can record it to a new place....maybe I am incorrect on this ??

Streaming is one thing. The data is still on the dvr. I know they recently setup a way to take some shows with you on your iPad or phone, but I am certain there is an interlock that would prevent you from taking the show and saving it to an unsecured location.

Maybe a little more background, what got me kick started into seriously considering doing this project, was losing a hard drive about a month ago. I had never lost one before. I didn't lose anything I couldn't afford to lose, it was the drive in my PC that i had set up to install programs on. Led to research, which showed me my (then) current back up plan was completely inadequate. I had 1-1TB hard drive for data, and 2 older 120GB external drives for backups. Adding 2 new 1TB hard drives for data and back up is a recent temporary upgrade, and using onedrive is a recent addition also. I figure the freenas server is protection against hard drive failure, and a dedicated back up system is protection against freenas server failure. Offsite is protection against disaster.

Any storage system is susceptible to hard drive failure (as you are aware). FreeNAS will not change that. The difference is that the data pool can usually (assuming you've set it up correctly) withstand one or more disks failing with no data loss. If you are just looking for a backup solution for photos and a few PCs, there are many cheaper alternatives that are also simpler than diving into FreeNAS. An external HDD that you store clones of your system drives to would have saved your bacon when the PC drive failed. Large external HDDs can be had for cheap, compared to the cost of the system you are looking to build. What FreeNAS gets you (and any respectable NAS does for that matter) is 24/7 access and sharing of all that stored data on multiple clients. The ability to setup jails and plugins that support access to that data (e.g. plex for streaming) is one of the big advantages of FreeNAS versus say your el-cheapo retail NAS box. In addition to the virtually unlimited customization that can be had with your own hardware.

So if you truly have a need for FreeNAS, by all means continue down the path you're on. And I'm certainly not trying to steer you away either. Just know that the learning curve is steep... unless you are committed to learning FreeNAS (and not afraid to use the command line once in a while), you may find a better solution can be had. I've used a small Synology NAS device for years very successfully, and only recently decided I wanted something more robust that could handle my growing workload and consolidate my plex, and NAS needs into one solution... and leave the door open for additional economies down the road if I so choose.

 

[GBillR]

Thanks for the link, that did help, and I had not read that before.
I figure the freenas server is protection against hard drive failure, and a dedicated back up system is protection against freenas server failure. Offsite is protection against disaster.

I just went back and re-read what you said here... I'm not sure I understand the "dedicated back up" system piece of your plan. This is really a big piece of what you seem to want to accomplish, and has the potential to increase your overall project cost significantly if you don't already own another back up location... did you already have something in mind?

 

[trentk10]

I just went back and re-read what you said here... I'm not sure I understand the "dedicated back up" system piece of your plan. This is really a big piece of what you seem to want to accomplish, and has the potential to increase your overall project cost significantly if you don't already own another back up location... did you already have something in mind?

I guess what I am trying to say is, from what I have read, its not a good idea to think of the freenas as a backup, so I need another solution for that...a separate system so to speak, to back up freenas. Unless I am misunderstanding something which is completely possible haha. I guess in my mind, I look at the freenas set up as insurance against a single hard drive failure.

 

[trentk10]

Any storage system is susceptible to hard drive failure (as you are aware). FreeNAS will not change that. The difference is that the data pool can usually (assuming you've set it up correctly) withstand one or more disks failing with no data loss. If you are just looking for a backup solution for photos and a few PCs, there are many cheaper alternatives that are also simpler than diving into FreeNAS. An external HDD that you store clones of your system drives to would have saved your bacon when the PC drive failed. Large external HDDs can be had for cheap, compared to the cost of the system you are looking to build. What FreeNAS gets you (and any respectable NAS does for that matter) is 24/7 access and sharing of all that stored data on multiple clients. The ability to setup jails and plugins that support access to that data (e.g. plex for streaming) is one of the big advantages of FreeNAS versus say your el-cheapo retail NAS box. In addition to the virtually unlimited customization that can be had with your own hardware.

So if you truly have a need for FreeNAS, by all means continue down the path you're on. And I'm certainly not trying to steer you away either. Just know that the learning curve is steep... unless you are committed to learning FreeNAS (and not afraid to use the command line once in a while), you may find a better solution can be had. I've used a small Synology NAS device for years very successfully, and only recently decided I wanted something more robust that could handle my growing workload and consolidate my plex, and NAS needs into one solution... and leave the door open for additional economies down the road if I so choose.

I like the idea of unlimited customization. That would let me learn at my own pace, and add things as I see fit, or have time. I work construction, and sometimes have large chunks of free time, this is kind of a hobby for me. I have no problem putting in the time to learn something new. If I end up not progressing very far, it will ultimately be an expensive version of el-cheapo retail nas box :)

My PC is currently kind of serving as the 24/7 all access machine, I would like to take that load off of my PC. I don't want it to run all the time, I did put it together myself, and now realize that what I built isn't designed for that. The college age kids keep weird hours due to work/class/sports schedules.

 

[GBillR]

I like the idea of unlimited customization. That would let me learn at my own pace, and add things as I see fit, or have time. I work construction, and sometimes have large chunks of free time, this is kind of a hobby for me. I have no problem putting in the time to learn something new. If I end up not progressing very far, it will ultimately be an expensive version of el-cheapo retail nas box :)

My PC is currently kind of serving as the 24/7 all access machine, I would like to take that load off of my PC. I don't want it to run all the time, I did put it together myself, and now realize that what I built isn't designed for that. The college age kids keep weird hours due to work/class/sports schedules.

You're in the right place then. I am sure you'll find lots of willing help here. And you are correct about needing a backup for the data on FreeNAS... Just wasn't sure how you intended to accomplish that. I currently have my Synology that I am transferring all of my data from, and then intend to convert that into just a backup location for the data that I don't send offsite.

 

[Stux]

FWIW, I think the recommendation to go with mirrors is the way to go.

Will even allow you to make use of your 1TB drives.

Easy and simple expansion, once you adjust to the idea of 50% storage efficiency, which 4 way z2 gets you anyway.

You still need 3-2-1 backup strategy for critical data. The NAS can be part of your backup strategy, but it is not a backup strategy by itself.

Also, I would look into skylake/X11 instead of haswell/x10, and a supermicro server board instead of workstation board.

 

[trentk10]

I currently have my Synology that I am transferring all of my data from, and then intend to convert that into just a backup location for the data that I don't send offsite.

After reading your earlier post, and looking at the Synology options, I was thinking of maybe going this way, and then it could serve as my backup device eventually, because I really don't have a good idea/option for a backup device at this point (I don't think anyway)

 

[trentk10]

FWIW, I think the recommendation to go with mirrors is the way to go.

Will even allow you to make use of your 1TB drives.

Easy and simple expansion, once you adjust to the idea of 50% storage efficiency, which 4 way z2 gets you anyway.

You still need 3-2-1 backup strategy for critical data. The NAS can be part of your backup strategy, but it is not a backup strategy by itself.

Also, I would look into skylake/X11 instead of haswell/x10, and a supermicro server board instead of workstation board.

All very good ideas and info, thanks a bunch :)

 

[trentk10]

I think I have finally decided on a motherboard/CPU. Also, I think I like the idea of the 2 drive mirrors. So, to start with I can go with 2 drives, and expand as needed from there. I picked a board based upon that as well. I haven't picked drives, a case or power supply yet, that is next on the list.

I do have a question though, on the supermicro website, they have a list of tested hard drives for the board I have chosen, is it wise to not use drives from that list?

Motherboard: https://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/C236_C232/X11SSH-LN4F.cfm
CPU: https://ark.intel.com/products/88168/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E3-1225-v5-8M-Cache-3_30-GHz
(currently a combo deal on newegg....i had picked a different board with only 2 LAN ports and similar specs but slightly cheaper, but was cheaper overall to go with this combo)
Memory: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA5EM3KB7224
(going to go with 1 16 GB stick for now, is this a mistake, or ok to do?)

 

[Ericloewe]

is it wise to not use drives from that list?

Yes, those lists are routinely ignored in the case of drives.

 

[trentk10]

Motherboard: https://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/C236_C232/X11SSH-LN4F.cfm
CPU: https://ark.intel.com/products/88168/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E3-1225-v5-8M-Cache-3_30-GHz
(currently a combo deal on newegg....i had picked a different board with only 2 LAN ports and similar specs but slightly cheaper, but was cheaper overall to go with this combo)
Memory: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA5EM3KB7224
(going to go with 1 16 GB stick for now, is this a mistake, or ok to do?)

2 x HDD: WD 4 TB https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236599

 

[trentk10]

Ok, on to the case/power supply & boot drive/device. I think I should probably choose the case first, then decide on a boot SSD or flash drive. I have looked a little at the cases, and there are literally a million choices.

I have no preference over rack/tower. I am also going to upgrade the network at the house, so a rack might be a good idea? I can put a 16 port rack mount switch on the rack as well. I looked a while yesterday, and the following case is the only one that stood out to me. It seemed to have some problems according to the reviews though.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147155

Any suggestions on a direction to go on a case are greatly appreciated.

 

[GBillR]

Ok, on to the case/power supply & boot drive/device. I think I should probably choose the case first, then decide on a boot SSD or flash drive. I have looked a little at the cases, and there are literally a million choices.

I have no preference over rack/tower. I am also going to upgrade the network at the house, so a rack might be a good idea? I can put a 16 port rack mount switch on the rack as well. I looked a while yesterday, and the following case is the only one that stood out to me. It seemed to have some problems according to the reviews though.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147155

Any suggestions on a direction to go on a case are greatly appreciated.

So if you decide to go with a rack case, I would be sure that whatever rack you intend to buy will be able to accommodate the case. Most of the consumer racks I've seen are not deep enough to fit a large rack mounted case, which is what kept me from going that route.
Also, be sure to look at the pros and cons of whatever solution you decide. Some things to consider:
1 - Air flow. Hot drives are a sure fire way to loose your data.
2 - Filters on intakes?
3 - number of HDD bays.
4 - Do you need/want hot-swap ability? I went back and forth on this and ultimately decided I wouldn't be moving drives around enough to warrant the extra expense, plus I could always add a HDD cage later.
5 - If you do get a rack case, and intend to use it in a rack, be sure that the HDDs are accessible via hot-swap trays or be sure the case is mounted on rails.
6 - Noise... do you need it to be rather quiet? Is it in the basement or a closet where noise isn't a concern?

If space isn't too much of a concern, I would go with a good sized mid or full tower with at least 8 internal 3.5 bays. If you want something smaller, people seem to like the Fractal Node 804. If you get a tower, there are plenty to choose from... personally, I favor the Fractal R5, but that's just a personal preference.

One point to note is that your MB has pins for lan activity (x4?), overheat, UID, fan fail, etc. Most (all?) consumer grade cases do not have the leds for that... unless you go with a rack mounted solution. Take a look at the manual for the MB and be sure to figure out what functionality you will want, if any. It would be nice if I could see LAN activity, on my setup, but unless I want to do some drilling and soldering, I have to look at the jack on the back of the i/o panel...

 

[trentk10]

One point to note is that your MB has pins for lan activity (x4?), overheat, UID, fan fail, etc. Most (all?) consumer grade cases do not have the leds for that... unless you go with a rack mounted solution. Take a look at the manual for the MB and be sure to figure out what functionality you will want, if any. It would be nice if I could see LAN activity, on my setup, but unless I want to do some drilling and soldering, I have to look at the jack on the back of the i/o panel...

Great point, hadn't considered this at all.

Hot swap not important. Case is going in the basement, so noise isn't a factor at all. I have been focusing on HDD's bays and cooling so far.

 

[trentk10]

I have another question. Are the M.2 tested hardware lists for the motherboard strictly followed?

I have installed freenas in virtualbox on my PC for me to learn/make mistakes while I choose/purchase parts. This forum (many thanks to all that came here before me, lots of good information here), and actually getting to use a test situation has been very helpful.

Purchased so far:

Motherboard: https://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon/C236_C232/X11SSH-LN4F.cfm
CPU: https://ark.intel.com/products/88168/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E3-1225-v5-8M-Cache-3_30-GHz
(currently a combo deal on newegg....i had picked a different board with only 2 LAN ports and similar specs but slightly cheaper, but was cheaper overall to go with this combo)
Memory: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA5EM3KB7224
(going to go with 1 16 GB stick for now, is this a mistake, or ok to do?)
4 x HDD: WD 4 TB https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236599
Case/Chassis: *USED* SuperMicro CSE-825TQ-R720LPB Chassis 8bay 2x720w PS - NO Mobo, rails
Switch: Refurbished Quanta LB4M 10GB Uplink Switch Dual Power Supplies QTY Available
I know not part of the server, but something I needed it seems for all the devices in the house

Still looking for:
Rack (have narrowed it down to 2 ...i think ...haha)
UPS
SSD/M.2....havn't decided which way to go yet. I know i could use a flash drive....still might do that.

 

[GBillR]

Still looking for:
Rack (have narrowed it down to 2 ...i think ...haha)
UPS
SSD/M.2....havn't decided which way to go yet. I know i could use a flash drive....still might do that.

Can't answer your M2 question, but curious to know which racks you are considering...