Overpowered builds

[Bohs Hansen]

Is it just me that doesnt get it? Isn't the whole idea of a NAS having a power saving device you can have running 24/7 at low costs?

I see so many building high end intel cpu's into the builds, where its absolutely aint needed imho. Else i could just add the HDDs to my main system and let that run 24/7, it isn't like there aren't enough free tools out there so you can build you own server on your main system...

 

[Milhouse]

I'm with you Bohs.

I've said several times the HP Microserver N36L is the perfect device for a 24x7 NAS, cheap, low powered, quiet and with just enough grunt to get the job done and runs FreeNAS perfectly.

It beats me why people are building out full servers with ATX motherboards, 500W+ PSUs and noisy desktop processors, unless of course they plan on running other stuff alongside FreeNAS in which case it's entirely understandable, but if not it's complete overkill. Any mini-ITX class board with Intel Atom/AMD Neo/AMD Bobcat will get the job done with ease.

 

[ProtoSD]

I'm with you too, not just on the overkill hardware, but wanting to bastardize the software. It's a NAS, "Network Storage", not a Firewall, Media Serving, diaper changing, fully configurable regular server..... acckkkkkk!

Edit: I'm all for a *little* software bastardization, but basically wanting to make FreeNAS into what you would have if you just installed FreeBSD with only the stuff you want is.... acckkkkkk! ;-)

 

[Bohs Hansen]

Good, it aint me then. Glad to see i haven't lost it all up there *yet* :)

 

[Milhouse]

I'm with you too, not just on the overkill hardware, but wanting to bastardize the software. It's a NAS, "Network Storage", not a Firewall, Media Serving, diaper changing, fully configurable regular server..... acckkkkkk!

Running FreeNAS in a VM alongside other VMs would be one example which would require/justify a little more grunt than normal, but if all that is being run is FreeNAS - even with a few add-ons ie. sabnazbd, transmission etc. - then you certainly don't need a CPU that requires active cooling, or a PSU rated at more than 250W (IMHO).

Of course I'm coming at this from the angle of home-builds... it's quite possible you might want slightly higher spec hardware if you were using FreeNAS in an environment with multiple active clients (eg. a small office), but in a home environment the load on the server is usually so low that even an Atom will rarely (if ever) break into a sweat.

 

[napandee]

I think most ppl use Old hardware when they upgrade to a new desktop computer, some of my hardware components is taken just from that fact. I am however replacing stuff as time goes :)

 

[tim.aslat]

I would guess it would depend on the ultimate use of the NAS.

My current implementation is based around a Norco 4220 chassis (20 hot swap drive bays) which at this stage requires 2 12 port PCI-x cards to handle the number of drives, I don't recall ever seeing a micro/mini atx style board with one, let alone 2 pci-x slots. The PSU is an 700W 80+ thermaltake running the mainboard, plus 22 Drives. 2xSSDs for caching and 20 HDDs for actual storage. OS runs off a USB stick.

I realise that I could also have gone for the pci-e cards and sata splitters, but I already had the pci-x cards on hand.

The primary use of this machine is iscsi targets for my xen server so performance is a priority, meaning lots of RAM and plenty of spindles. Not everyone needs this level of grunt but in my case it's justified. My NAS at home on the other hand is much more modest :)

 

[Bohs Hansen]

I was of course referring to home servers, as most sys admins with a little respect for them self would set it up manual with their preferred *nix distro instead of limited system as FreeNAS (as it is now, without manual tweaks or compilations).

I know if you got a high-hits webserver running with lots of SQL queries, or 20+ people constantly working directly of it, you'll need some Xeon or similar power to handle that, but thats a whole other topic imo.

 

[Michael Mielko]

Just the basics, please ...

I just want a NAS box that will be a file server, print server for multiple (Non network) printers and serve my media (Music & Video) files .. I'm using generic Microcenter hardware with a AMD 64 (Single Core) Athlon with a gig of ram. Mixed computers Win7/Mac ... Most traffic is AFP and having it as a backup (Time Machine) is essential.

 

[R.G.]

I spent quite a bit of time thinking about hardware for a file server. My use is for a couple of layers of backup for the active machines, with one server on 24/7 and another powered on intermittently to back up the 24/7 machine.

In fact, what I was looking for was ZFS for the data integrity issues. That led me to OpenSolaris, which is where I would have stayed had not Oracle employed its little bit of social engineering to run people away from the free stuff. I took the hint and left. Still looking for ZFS, I came to FreeBSD, and then FreeNAS, which does what I wanted anyway.

Since I was looking for data integrity, I decided that ECC RAM was a critical issue. ASUS offers several motherboards which let you use ECC RAM *and* enable that to actually do ECC, which are different things. Some motherboards which say "ECC" are actually only ECC-tolerant. The reason ECC is important is that a good disk subsystem will faithfully store any incorrect data you feed it from a motherboard RAM error. Soft errors in RAM are not uncommon.

This constrained my choice of motherboards and processors. Intel has printed into hardware the inability to use ECC unless you use their high end processors. AMD on the other hand makes ECC available for all but the lowest mobile processors. I dug hard into the itx fanless motherboards and found none of them that supported ECC; otherwise, I'd have gone for the lowest possible power solution there.

But ECC put a minimum level on the choices. I went for a MATX with ECC and integrated video; no reason to spend the power or money on a video card. It had multimedia stuff which was immaterial. It also had six SATA ports and one IDE port.

The IDE port let me put an IDE to compact flash adapter in there for a boot disk. Cheaper and lower power than a SSD. The six SATA ports let me put a useful amount of disk storage on line without additional adapters.

The power budget let me run the motherboard and all the disks for a measured 76W of power (as measured with a power meter at the AC power socket) at idle, never peaking to over 100W, even at power up. I plan to worry about disk spin down at some point.

As it happens, the power supply for a system like this gets problematical. Low power ATX power supplies are not particularly efficient. You can actually spend as much waste power with a lower power, but lower efficiency power supply than a higher power, but higher efficiency power supply. I wound up with high efficiency Corsair 400W supply. It's losses are in the 76W.

I know that I could run more disks. The peak power comes from disk activity. Each disk has a power peak rating for startup and for runing. The startup peak is the real issue that limits the power supply. You have to have enough power supply rating to spin up all the disks simultaneously unless you have a staggered spin up capability. I know how to do staggered spin, but it's not a standard feature of most motherboards, disks, or I suspect FreeNAS/FreeBSD. Since I had to buy a bigger power supply anyway, I chose not to worry about that point.

 

[jgreco]

Is it just me that doesnt get it? Isn't the whole idea of a NAS having a power saving device you can have running 24/7 at low costs?

No. The idea of a NAS is having storage available that isn't attached to a single PC.

Just as there are different classes of hard drives (5400RPM, 15K RPM, SSD), there are different classes of use for NAS storage. Some people need large amounts of storage but don't need fast access. Some people need fast access to small amounts of storage. Some people don't even need 24/7 access to whatever storage they have.

If you're running an ESXi cluster, for example, you might need high speed access to multiple disks from multiple hosts. That's going to benefit from a fast CPU and fast disks, and can't be replaced with directly-attached disks.

 

[coe]

I was of course referring to home servers, as most sys admins with a little respect for them self would set it up manual with their preferred *nix distro instead of limited system as FreeNAS (as it is now, without manual tweaks or compilations).

From my personal observation and I do know quite many sysops personally, they value ease of use and least amount of fuss over everything else, especially when running stuff at home. Freenas is chosen as a platform because it does not require effort. If you are an *nix admin on large institution or a firm, its never down to self respect "of running *nixs" but value for time and ease of use. Many will choose Freenas, just because they don't have to set up yet another distro to do simple stuff of sharing files. You don't tinker with file servers, they keep and serve data - thats it. Any respectable sysadmin will say the same.

What comes to using overpowered gear - that point is also bit moot. Not everyone is a student and well, to be frank, sysadmin job pays well enough not to worry about a) electricity b) cost of cpu. You just buy stuff that goes easily together, enough drives for your needs, install the usb stick and hey, storage problems are gone. You don't even look after it, just check the new version releases if you happen to have need to ugprade it. (which also is trivial) Does it cost 5 or 10$ a month, is little concern to many. With brand new gear, good PSUs, lots of fresh drives - it ensures the fact that you don't have touch the bloody thing before first drive fails - hopefully after 5 years. Its not tied to your other setups, it just sits in corner - serving files. Data is important here, not the platform that runs it.

"Not getting" why some people do something, often is down to the fact you fail to look things at their POV.

 

[Bohs Hansen]

To me, a NAS is what it stands for. A network attached storage. Everything else and I don't categorize it as a NAS anymore but as a server.
All a NAS needs is transfer protocols, AKA FTP, CIFS and Timemachine (or whatever that mac thing is called) and user management. Maybe a DLNA on top if your devices don't support the previous protocols on their own.

Everything else, that the prebuild NAS also come with, like download, survailance, web etc stations are just a bonus imo.

But that might just be me - doesn't matter, this wasn't intended as a start for arguments but just out of curiosity.

 

[_Adrian_]

Well..
the way I look at it is dependant on usage.
I'm running a HP Blade Server with 4 x 3000W power supplies plus the NAS which is a MSA1500cs Controller with redundant 250W power supplies and 2 x MSA20 Drive shelf's which each have redundant 750W power supplies. The first 4 Bays are taken up BL20p G2 each with 4Gb of RAM and Dual 3.0GHz Xeon of which the first 2 blades are running FreeNAS and FreeBSD on the other 2. Bays 5, 6, 7, 8 are taken up by a BL40p which has QUAD 3.2GHz Xeon's and 12GB of RAM running Windows Home Server. NAS currently has 1 shelf populated with 12 x 2TB 10K Seagate Constelation ES Drives and waiting for the other dozen of drives to arrive in the next week or so.

My power bill went up about 120/month with all that equipment running 247 !
PLUS
DL360 as Firewall and a ProCurve Router

 

[Milhouse]

Well..
the way I look at it is dependant on usage.
I'm running a HP Blade Server with 4 x 3000W power supplies plus the NAS which is a MSA1500cs Controller with redundant 250W power supplies and 2 x MSA20 Drive shelf's which each have redundant 750W power supplies. The first 4 Bays are taken up BL20p G2 each with 4Gb of RAM and Dual 3.0GHz Xeon of which the first 2 blades are running FreeNAS and FreeBSD on the other 2. Bays 5, 6, 7, 8 are taken up by a BL40p which has QUAD 3.2GHz Xeon's and 12GB of RAM running Windows Home Server. NAS currently has 1 shelf populated with 12 x 2TB 10K Seagate Constelation ES Drives and waiting for the other dozen of drives to arrive in the next week or so.

My power bill went up about 120/month with all that equipment running 247 !
PLUS
DL360 as Firewall and a ProCurve Router

You can probably pick up a Cray XMP-1 from eBay to be your email server.

 

[_Adrian_]

On the DL360 I'm running win 2K8 Enterprise Server with Zone Alarm Pro and runs my Email Server as well.
Its also scans all the incoming packets and files for viruses or malicious software

 

[jgreco]

Quite frankly, unless you're dealing in hundreds of messages per second, you really don't need too much processing and I/O power to host an email server with all the bells and whistles. More if you're doing server-side intensive stuff like IMAP, but still.

They sell Cray XMP-1's on eBay?

 

[_Adrian_]

And this is before the upgrade...
SAN is remaining the same.
Just sold the p-Class and the new c7000 chassis is already on its way :)
6 x BL460c - 2X XEON QC 3.0GHZ, 32GB-RAM, 2 x 600 GB 10K SAS Drives - Mezz 1 > HP Qlogic QMH2462 Dual 4Gb FC - Mezz 2 > HP NC-512M 10GBE
2 x SB40c - 6X hot plug small form factor (SFF) SAS or SATA hard disk drives with on board Smart Array P400 controller and 256 MB BBWC
1 x SB920c - HP StorageWorks SB920c Tape Blade - LTO Ultrium 3 - Capacity (Native) 400 GB / Capacity (Compressed) 800 GB
2 x BL680c G5 - 4X QC XEON E7340 2.4Ghz, 64GB RAM, 2 x 146Gb 10K SAS

Also this serve is more than just my NAS, its also my web and mail server, and a few other functions ;)

 

[_Adrian_]

Well, we got 3 new contracts and seems like our MSA is just not going to cut it :/
Time for upgrade...

MDS600 ( 2x 35 3TB SAS/ SATA3 drive trays ) here i come :D
On phone with HP Support right now to figure out a controller option for the c-Class chassis.

 

[sb9t]

From my personal observation and I do know quite many sysops personally, they value ease of use and least amount of fuss over everything else, especially when running stuff at home. Freenas is chosen as a platform because it does not require effort. If you are an *nix admin on large institution or a firm, its never down to self respect "of running *nixs" but value for time and ease of use. Many will choose Freenas, just because they don't have to set up yet another distro to do simple stuff of sharing files. You don't tinker with file servers, they keep and serve data - thats it. Any respectable sysadmin will say the same.

What comes to using overpowered gear - that point is also bit moot. Not everyone is a student and well, to be frank, sysadmin job pays well enough not to worry about a) electricity b) cost of cpu. You just buy stuff that goes easily together, enough drives for your needs, install the usb stick and hey, storage problems are gone. You don't even look after it, just check the new version releases if you happen to have need to ugprade it. (which also is trivial) Does it cost 5 or 10$ a month, is little concern to many. With brand new gear, good PSUs, lots of fresh drives - it ensures the fact that you don't have touch the bloody thing before first drive fails - hopefully after 5 years. Its not tied to your other setups, it just sits in corner - serving files. Data is important here, not the platform that runs it.

"Not getting" why some people do something, often is down to the fact you fail to look things at their POV.

I think that reply simply says it all.

I have 6 physical servers at my house and 4 Virtual servers, 7 physical servers if you count my Linux router (I wouldn't). We're a very digital family so these servers do everything from home automation to remote virtual desktops. They insure that my kids wont be talking to pervs online and that when they're grounded... well they're grounded! I can turn off every outlet in their rooms... or the entire house from my cell phone. Co-workers and family members think I'm nuts. I defiantly have the most understanding wife in the world. Honestly it was very easy for me to setup up my network (I'm a sys admin) and once I have it all working hardware failures are the only thing that brings down anything on my network (historically).

To the Nas specifically, I have all the servers I mentioned above plus 5 laptops that all needs NAS access (sometimes at the same time). I also have a media system that is capable of streaming video and audio to multiple TV's at once. Currently we use this feature very often, I have 5 TV's configured and I'm only limited by bandwidth and server resources. I also store every disc I purchase on my NAS in ISO format, and I purchase A LOT of discs. I refuse!... absolutely refuse to go shuffling through discs so I can use a DVD drive, which is significantly slower than an ISO mounted to a virtual DVD drive over the network (Gigabit). I buy them, rip them, then chuck the discs in a bin I have in the basement never to be seen again. When I copy a DVD I don't use that compression B.S. I want the full quality and resolution with all the disc features, so a single DVD could weigh in at over 7 GB. Imagine that 7gb file streaming to 5 TVs all at once, while at the same time there are 8 security cameras recording to the NAS 24/7 and my leech brother is copying data over the VPN.

We're in 2011, I refuse to wait for a computer to do anything. I want and I want it now. Using a atom or some other low powered device would be an injustice for me. Sometimes I feel that my NAS isn't powerful enough as it is. The hit to my electric bill is similar to _Adrian_, but I swear I'd be willing to pay double that simply for the convenience, ease of use, and security my over powered devices bring to me and my family.

End rant... :D