Check My MicroATX Build

[CraigChrist8239]

What? why having 6 drives makes them spin more than having 5? besides, the paper from google (here) show no link between drive failure rate and drive usage.


No, you can't add drives to a vdev (but you can add a vdev to a zpool if you want to expand it), see Cyberjock's presentation (here) for the detailed explanation on that subject ;)

But according to that presentation, that extra drive wouldn't have any protection as RAID-Z2 only operates within the vdev and not the zpool? I can wait just fine to get a 6th drive in. I'm kinda wondering if I can order 6 drives across 2 orders, one right after the other.

Other than that, any problems with the build? I'm probably going to order the parts tomorrow or the next day as thats when the WD discount expries.

The kind of ECC RAM has to be that which the motherboard requires; read the specs for each particular motherboard. I am not certain, but the impression I get is that if a motherboard takes only 8GB memory modules it's going to require UNregistered/UNbuffered RAM and will not work with Registered RAM modules. On the other hand, some motherboards require Registered RAM modules.

Another thing: whether you're going to use 6TB or 4TB drives, compare the feedback ratings at NewEgg for the WD NAS drives and the corresponding HGST ones.

Yes we've worked past that, see above. The problem I was having is that I was hearing I need unbuffered and buffered from different people so I was fairly confused. Luckly the T20 is pretty clear on what it supports, so this is no longer an issue.

I didn't think I need to.... and I still don't think I needed to. Just as I thought, the WD drive has some bad reviews, but almost none are about the drive. For instance, this man gave 0 pros and 2 eggs because Newegg wouldn't ship it to him on Saturday, he couldn't pick it up at the warehouse, and he couldn't change the shipping address. Honestly none of these are my problem. The ones that had a problem with the drive itself seem to always get a comment from WD that they sincerely want to help. Lastly at the current price, the WD 4TB is cheaper than the comparable HGST 4TB. As previously stated I've used WD pretty much my whole life and only 1 old and cheap Green drive ever failed, so I see no reason to stop.
EDIT: Lastly I've seen the BackBlaze numbers that show the Red drives have an increased rate of failure, but I've also seen the BackBlaze storage pods, which far exceed the 8 bay NAS the Red drives are suggested for.

 

[Bidule0hm]

"But according to that presentation, that extra drive wouldn't have any protection as RAID-Z2 only operates within the vdev and not the zpool?" I'm not sure to understand what you mean by that. But to explain a bit better, if you add a 6th drive to a zpool which already has a 5 drives RAID-Z2 you effectively ruin the redundancy because this drive will not be added to the existing RAID-Z2 vdev but to a new vdev with this only one drive (so no redundancy).

I don't know about the already made servers, I can't advise you on that, sorry.

I've 4x Seagate 3TB NAS and 4x WD 3TB RED (and two of each for more than 6 months now) and I purposely buyed 4 of each brand to compare them in the same exact conditions. The only differences I can see between those until now are that the Seagate seeks are [far] more noisier, and they are 2°C cooler than the WD.

And from what I've read on the net (so not 100% trustworthy... I believe only what I can see myself) the HGST are more reliable than the Seagate and WD drives, but they are also more expensive.

 

[CraigChrist8239]

"But according to that presentation, that extra drive wouldn't have any protection as RAID-Z2 only operates within the vdev and not the zpool?" I'm not sure to understand what you mean by that. But to explain a bit better, if you add a 6th drive to a zpool which already has a 5 drives RAID-Z2 you effectively ruin the redundancy because this drive will not be added to the existing RAID-Z2 vdev but to a new vdev with this only one drive (so no redundancy).

I don't know about the already made servers, I can't advise you on that, sorry.

I've 4x Seagate 3TB NAS and 4x WD 3TB RED (and two of each for more than 6 months now) and I purposely buyed 4 of each brand to compare them in the same exact conditions. The only differences I can see between those until now are that the Seagate seeks are [far] more noisier, and they are 2°C cooler than the WD.

And from what I've read on the net (so not 100% trustworthy... I believe only what I can see myself) the HGST are more reliable than the Seagate and WD drives, but they are also more expensive.

Yes thats what I meant, so RAID-Z2 operates on vdevs and not on zpools, which is what I would be adding the drive to, so no data protection. Yea, I can wait, lol.

Like I said, WD is my preferred. I've always thought of the HGST drives as both enterprise level drives and consumer NAS level drives. WD on the other hand I've always thought of having Red drives for consumer NAS level and then Xe or Re or Se for a datacenter like BackBlaze. I'd like to see some reliability numbers for those drives from BackBlaze, because I bet they would be much more effective than the Red drives were in their situation.

 

[Bidule0hm]

"I'd like to see some reliability numbers for those drives from BackBlaze" In fact they've been published, but they're highly criticized because the methodology and the test environnement (too much vibrations, temperature too low, ...) aren't good at representing the average use case of the drives.

 

[CraigChrist8239]

"I'd like to see some reliability numbers for those drives from BackBlaze" In fact they've been published, but they're highly criticized because the methodology and the test environnement (too much vibrations, temperature too low, ...) aren't good at representing the average use case of the drives.

Link? I've seen the Red drive numbers, which I have critized here

EDIT: Lastly I've seen the BackBlaze numbers that show the Red drives have an increased rate of failure, but I've also seen the BackBlaze storage pods, which far exceed the 8 bay NAS the Red drives are suggested for.

But I don't see numbers for Xe/Re/Se which is what I was talking about there....
EDIT: These drives should have better numbers, as they're more suited to enterprise-level storage applications like BackBlaze.

 

[Jailer]

That SATA card you linked to is not recommended for freenas.

Make sure you fully understand the definitions of "vdev" and "zpool" and how to set up your drives. Once a vdev is set it's set and the only way to change it is to destroy the pool and start over.

 

[CraigChrist8239]

That SATA card you linked to is not recommended for freenas.

Make sure you fully understand the definitions of "vdev" and "zpool" and how to set up your drives. Once a vdev is set it's set and the only way to change it is to destroy the pool and start over.

Can you recommend one?
EDIT: Keep in mind, at least two internal SATA ports and I'd like some eSATA/SAS connectors on the outside to connect to HDD enclosures to upgrade with. And it has to be under say $40?

Yes, I am now aware.

 

[Bidule0hm]

I was talking about this article https://www.backblaze.com/blog/best-hard-drive/ in regards to the Seagate/WD/HGST, not the Xe/Re/Se in particular.

"These drives should have better numbers, as they're more suited to enterprise-level storage applications like BackBlaze." The problem is: BackBlaze doesn't do it like any other enterprise. I'm not saying it's bad or good, I'm just saying the drives are in a environment far more different for those of the average enterprises, so you can't use their stats to determine the reliability of the drives in a classical server, their stats are only valid for their storage pods. Plus the stats are more or less biased anyway because of the mix of the pods versions who have significant differences (notably on the vibration dampening).

 

[CraigChrist8239]

I was talking about this article https://www.backblaze.com/blog/best-hard-drive/ in regards to the Seagate/WD/HGST, not the Xe/Re/Se in particular.

"These drives should have better numbers, as they're more suited to enterprise-level storage applications like BackBlaze." The problem is: BackBlaze doesn't do it like any other enterprise. I'm not saying it's bad or good, I'm just saying the drives are in a environment far more different for those of the average enterprises, so you can't use their stats to determine the reliability of the drives in a classical server, their stats are only valid for their storage pods. Plus the stats are more or less biased anyway because of the mix of the pods versions who have significant differences (notably on the vibration dampening).

I'm not trying to use their numbers to determine the reliability of the drives in a classical server, I'm trying to use their numbers to determine the reliability in my environment. I realize their storage environment and I realize the vibration problems and later vibration dampening. I also agree that the Red drive stats would not be accurate for a small NAS like mine for example, because the Red drives are only stated to be for systems with up to 8 drives which BackBlaze far exceeds, vibration issues aside. Thats why I think if they tried a storage pod with one of the WD enterprise-level drives they might get better results (Xe/Re/Se), as they are made for systems with a large number of drives such as theirs. Do you not think that would be the case? Thats why I would like to see the numbers from a storage pod made with those kind of drives, as it would be interesting to see how they perform in comparison in that environment.

Anyway thanks for your help! I'll be ordering the parts within the next couple days and I will provide pictures :3 Also getting 2 flash drives from the recommendations thread for a mirrored boot drive.

 

[Bidule0hm]

I think the X drives maximum for the RED is just marketing bullshit. From a technical point of view there is practically no difference between a 8 and 9 drives NAS for example, I don't see why the drives would work fine in a 8 drives sytem and it would fail in a 9 drives system...

"Thats why I think if they tried a storage pod with one of the WD enterprise-level drives they might get better results (Xe/Re/Se), as they are made for systems with a large number of drives such as theirs." Yeah, enterprise drives are better. But I think there is no real final gain to buy enterprise drives vs. consumer drives even for the enterprises (proof: BackBlaze...) because they're far more expensive but not that far more better, just a bit better. (but it's my personal opinion). But I'm pretty sure they've tested the RE version IIRC, I'll search the article. <-- edit: can't find any article where the RE version appears, I guess I've just mis-recalled what I've read.

No problem ;) Yeah, USB sticks are pretty cheap, mirroring the boot drive really is a good idea for the price.

 

[marbus90]

It's not about 8 vs 9 drives, 8 is just the standard soho size. I'd sign off on 10 Reds as well, but only with vibration damping. Above that we're usually in the SAS Enterprise wonderland...

Since I've got the T20 myself: the 4x SATA are precabled for SATA power and data and hassle-free with included internal drive trays. There's only 4x SATA onboard, also the 2 additional disks are in the factory config 2.5" only. You may get around that with removing the front panel, swapping the Dell module in the 2x5.25" for a 3in2 tray and adding another 3.5" disk in the internal free-hanging 3.5" bay. But you'd still need an additional controller running for ~150$ including cables.

These are your cheap, entry-level servers with 4 HDD bays... anything else and you'll be paying quite a lot more, but you should still be within the ~100$/bay area.

 

[CraigChrist8239]

It's not about 8 vs 9 drives, 8 is just the standard soho size. I'd sign off on 10 Reds as well, but only with vibration damping. Above that we're usually in the SAS Enterprise wonderland...

Since I've got the T20 myself: the 4x SATA are precabled for SATA power and data and hassle-free with included internal drive trays. There's only 4x SATA onboard, also the 2 additional disks are in the factory config 2.5" only. You may get around that with removing the front panel, swapping the Dell module in the 2x5.25" for a 3in2 tray and adding another 3.5" disk in the internal free-hanging 3.5" bay. But you'd still need an additional controller running for ~150$ including cables.

These are your cheap, entry-level servers with 4 HDD bays... anything else and you'll be paying quite a lot more, but you should still be within the ~100$/bay area.

The T20 specs states that there are 6 hard drive mounts, 4 x SATA ports and then 2 are available with an expansion card. In the pictures I see the 4 main ones and what looks like 2 more mounts either on top of the bottom cage, or below (or maybe on top?) of the top cage. I picked out a controller as listed for under $40, and I have SATA cables.

I was thinking if I need more space in future, I like the idea of adding a "5-drive RAID-Z2" block of drives and wiring it up with SAS or eSATA or something... But I'm reading the forums about how drive enclosures will only be presented as a JBOD and so that idea is out.... I guess I could buy a larger case in future? ...or perhaps a littler sooner than that....

EDIT: Reading closer and it says its +2 2.5" drives, which is unacceptable. Needless to say I've already looked online and found
Fractal Design Node 804
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811352047
which has up to 10 3.5" drive spots (unless I'm missing some fine print again). This would make me feel comfortable doing 2 5-drive RAID-Z2 blocks, which means I won't have to try to get 6 drives out of newegg. At only $110 it keeps my build still within my range. I take it I can just take everything out and put it in the new case no problem? Consider it added to my list.
EDIT2: Also, the motherboard in the T20 is uATX yes? The specs don't say and the only person who says that it is is a user review online...

 

[Z300M]

But according to that presentation, that extra drive wouldn't have any protection as RAID-Z2 only operates within the vdev and not the zpool? I can wait just fine to get a 6th drive in. I'm kinda wondering if I can order 6 drives across 2 orders, one right after the other.

Other than that, any problems with the build? I'm probably going to order the parts tomorrow or the next day as thats when the WD discount expries.

Yes we've worked past that, see above. The problem I was having is that I was hearing I need unbuffered and buffered from different people so I was fairly confused. Luckly the T20 is pretty clear on what it supports, so this is no longer an issue.

I didn't think I need to.... and I still don't think I needed to. Just as I thought, the WD drive has some bad reviews, but almost none are about the drive. For instance, this man gave 0 pros and 2 eggs because Newegg wouldn't ship it to him on Saturday, he couldn't pick it up at the warehouse, and he couldn't change the shipping address. Honestly none of these are my problem. The ones that had a problem with the drive itself seem to always get a comment from WD that they sincerely want to help. Lastly at the current price, the WD 4TB is cheaper than the comparable HGST 4TB. As previously stated I've used WD pretty much my whole life and only 1 old and cheap Green drive ever failed, so I see no reason to stop.
EDIT: Lastly I've seen the BackBlaze numbers that show the Red drives have an increased rate of failure, but I've also seen the BackBlaze storage pods, which far exceed the 8 bay NAS the Red drives are suggested for.

Of course some of the user feedback at any Web site is nonsense, but look at the DOA reports on NewEgg for the WD Reds.

 

[CraigChrist8239]

Of course some of the user feedback at any Web site is nonsense, but look at the DOA reports on NewEgg for the WD Reds.

I have. I have also read them for Seagate. HGST is the one with the DOA requests few and far between, and they're more expensive... I do notice that pretty much all DOA requests for the 4TB Red drives stopped at the end of last October, so something must've changed.

I am confident in my choice of drive manufacturer and I will be getting them. I'm more worried about problems with the other parts, such as will the mobo and psu fit in the 804 case?

EDIT: Also an update on the controller. I couldn't find one with 6x internal SATA ports (external ports no longer matter) so I picked ones with 8 ports (SAS controllers are still fairly more expensive...) I figured supermicro was a reputable enough brand? Will this work?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA5EM2JS7202
PS I realize they are SATAII ports but that should still give me plenty of speed for DLNA to at most 2, maybe 3 people. (Keep in mind, I'll only be using 1/8 ports to start with and maybe go to 6/8 if I need to double my space, but thats it)

Grand Total:$1,484.50
Still under $1,500, still very very doable.

 

[CraigChrist8239]

Ok, can someone give me some advice on the SATA controller? I need one that has at least 6xSATA internal ports and will fit in a PowerEdge T20, and will be fast enough to stream movies. The one I picked out above is PCI-X which is not going to work. I think this will work,
SYBA SI-PEX40071
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816124070
Like I said, I'll only use 1 at most 6 ports. The T20 specs says it only supports PCIe 2.0 x16 or x4 or x1 and this is x2 so will it work in a x4 slot? The answers I'm reading are yes. Its also hot-swappable so that will work? Just wondering as the only other choices are in the hundreds of dollars....
Now we're at $1489.50
Someone say its good and I'm ordering the whole damn thing.

Everything all together:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16859155115
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811352047
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816124070
2 x http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820191593
5 x http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236599
2 x http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA12K11S3867

 

[Z300M]

Ok, can someone give me some advice on the SATA controller? I need one that has at least 6xSATA internal ports and will fit in a PowerEdge T20, and will be fast enough to stream movies. The one I picked out above is PCI-X which is not going to work. I think this will work,
SYBA SI-PEX40071
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816124070
Like I said, I'll only use 1 at most 6 ports. The T20 specs says it only supports PCIe 2.0 x16 or x4 or x1 and this is x2 so will it work in a x4 slot? The answers I'm reading are yes. Its also hot-swappable so that will work? Just wondering as the only other choices are in the hundreds of dollars....
Now we're at $1489.50
Someone say its good and I'm ordering the whole damn thing.

Everything all together:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16859155115
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811352047
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816124070

I know nothing about the suitability of the Syba for FreeNAS. For not much more you could get an IBM M1015 on eBay -- known to work with FreeNAS (after flashing to IT mode) and highly recommended.

2 x http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820191593
5 x http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236599

How much more are the HGST?

2 x http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA12K11S3867

Kingston has been doing some nasty things lately. In any case, if you have a BestBuy not far away, they have the 16GB SanDisk Cruzer Fit devices -- about the same size as the Kingston -- for less $$.

 

[CraigChrist8239]

Well I've done some more thinking and I realized the T20 PSU probably isn't going to support up to 10 drives like the case, so I'll probably have to throw that out too.... At this rate, I might as well just buy the mobo and processor myself, and as long as the mobo has 5+ sata ports I don't need a controller right away... As such I've revised my list with the new motherboard, CPU and PSU on top. The PSU was selected because it has at least 10 SATA connectors, the motherboard because it has at least 5 SATA ports and it supports the Pentium CPU I took from the T20 build.

Supermicro Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182819
Intel Pentium Dual-Core CPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116950
SeaSonic 650w PWU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151137
Fractal Design Node 804: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811352047
2x Crucial 8GB DDR3 1600Mhz ECC Unregistered: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820191593

I know nothing about the suitability of the Syba for FreeNAS. For not much more you could get an IBM M1015 on eBay -- known to work with FreeNAS (after flashing to IT mode) and highly recommended.
How much more are the HGST?
Kingston has been doing some nasty things lately. In any case, if you have a BestBuy not far away, they have the 16GB SanDisk Cruzer Fit devices -- about the same size as the Kingston -- for less $$.

Switched back to a custom build and the Syba is gone.
~$20 more per drive, so about $100 more. Again, I'm confident with WD Red, thanks for the concern.
I'll take that advice, but not on the BestBuy...
5x WD Red 4TB: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236599
2x 16GB SanDisk Cruzer Fit: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820171588

Grand Total: $1,423.48
Just as I though, the price went down by getting rid of the T20, and the parts are mostly the same as before.... Does anyone see any more problems? I'm sure I will... Still ordering tomorrow!!
Needless to say, I feel much better about building myself than ripping apart a T20...

 

[marbus90]

An M1015 off ebay is cheaper than this Syba crap.

The Dell T20's board is mATX, but uses an unusual (still standartized) PSU connector. If you plan on running 10 disks, the Dells PSU will not be enough - 4-6 drives are top limit. Haven't found an PSU adapter for Dell yet (haven't searched toroughly tbh). For Lenovos TS140 there seem to be premade adapters.

Also the TS140 board has 5x SATA onboard.

 

[CraigChrist8239]

An M1015 off ebay is cheaper than this Syba crap.

The Dell T20's board is mATX, but uses an unusual (still standartized) PSU connector. If you plan on running 10 disks, the Dells PSU will not be enough - 4-6 drives are top limit. Haven't found an PSU adapter for Dell yet (haven't searched toroughly tbh). For Lenovos TS140 there seem to be premade adapters.

Also the TS140 board has 5x SATA onboard.

Check the updated list directly above. No prebuilt stuff and no "Syba crap".

 

[CraigChrist8239]

Ordering the parts in this post in about an hour. Last chance for someone to point out a flaw! Please try to save me from making a $1,500 mistake.
EDIT: Checked my email for last minute deals. Theres a Pentium G3258 (slightly newer than mine) at +.2Ghz and -1w for $4 more.... I might as well...