Backup Idea, What do you think?

[eliteassassin]

First let me say that I don't want to start an argument\debate over the whole ECC RAM vs non ECC RAM as I fully understand the importance of using ECC RAM with FreeNAS. However for a home installation I cant come to justify the increase in cost.

That being said I have full intentions of backing up all of my data what I am not sure about at this time is exactly my plan for doing so... Lets assume that in the options below that I will only need 2TB of "live" storage and that it will be made up of 2 1TB Hard Drives and I will need 2TB of backup space made up of 2 1TB Hard Drives, also assume that ZFS will be used on all volumes in the NAS.

Option One:
I will install all 4 hard drives into my FreeNAS and create two volumes one volume will consist of 2 drives totaling 2TB (lets call it Volume A) and the other volume will consist of 2 drives totaling 2TB (lets call it Volume B). Lets assume for the purpose of this discussion that I can get Crashplan to work with FreeNAS and the idea will be to backup all of the contents of Volume A onto Volume B and all of the contents of Volume A to the Crashplan Cloud, pretty straight forward. My question is since I am not using ECC RAM how big of a risk am I taking by backing up my data to Volume B which is using ZFS and resides in the same FreeNAS Box?

Option Two:
I will install 2 hard drives into my FreeNAS and create one volume that will consist of 2 drives totaling 2TB (lets call it Volume A). I will then install 2 hard drives into a 2nd server (Linux Based) and create a volume that consists of 2 drives totaling 2TB (lets call it Volume B). I will then use Crashplan to backup the contents of Volume A from the FreeNAS to Volume B in the Linux Server.

To me Option Two seems to be more secure for multiple reasons...
1. Separate systems
2. The backup system would be using ECC RAM and server grade components
3. The backup system would not be using the ZFS file system

Thoughts? Just trying to check my logic here...

Thank you in advanced.

 

[Ericloewe]

Corrupted data will most likely be propagated to the backups (ruining them) before you even realize something is wrong.

What's the point of using ECC on the backup if the main server doesn't have it? So that your corrupted data doesn't corrupt any further (which is inconsequential)?
And why do you think ZFS is insecure? ZFS is damn secure, assuming you don't start taking shortcuts.

Furthermore, how can you "not justify" the cost of ECC when motherboards are only slightly more expensive and RAM isn't even 1/8 more expensive? It's quite a small difference once you take a good look at it.
There's no point in comparing the cheapest motherboard you can find (because it may never work properly) with a good server board (which is pretty much guaranteed to work).

 

[eliteassassin]

Corrupted data will most likely be propagated to the backups (ruining them) before you even realize something is wrong.

What's the point of using ECC on the backup if the main server doesn't have it? So that your corrupted data doesn't corrupt any further (which is inconsequential)?
And why do you think ZFS is insecure? ZFS is damn secure, assuming you don't start taking shortcuts.

Furthermore, how can you "not justify" the cost of ECC when motherboards are only slightly more expensive and RAM isn't even 1/8 more expensive? It's quite a small difference once you take a good look at it.
There's no point in comparing the cheapest motherboard you can find (because it may never work properly) with a good server board (which is pretty much guaranteed to work).

So I agree that the corrupted data would most likely propagate to the backup however this would be an easy fix as I would simply restore the files from a date when they were not corrupted, so for my usage I am not really concerned about that. I am not sure that I understand what you mean by "do I think ZFS is insecure" but if you are referring to my clear desire to have a backup I don't think that any file system or RAID configuration (no matter how robust) is a true replacement for a proper backup system.

The ECC RAM is in the "backup server" because this server is a true server running multiple services (FTP, IIS, Game Servers, VMs, etc) otherwise I would wipe this box and install FreeNAS on it... I have to disagree with you on the cost of Server Motherboards to get ECC support you are looking at spending between $150 and $200 just for a cheep board then when you take into account the increase in CPU you are easily doubling the cost of the build. For a home NAS I don't see the need to have server class hardware and if my testing and information from this site points to needing server class hardware then I will not use FreeNAS. I must admit that Windows Server 2008 along with third party apps (which I am running now) can/does meet my current storage needs however being an "IT Guy" I like the idea of playing around with FreeNAS and learning new technologies.

 

[cyberjock]

Well, let me tell you something. The whole ECC vs non-ECC debate is a debate because people:

1. Aren't aware of how damaging bad RAM is.
2. Don't realize that bad RAM will destroy your backups and it has taken people weeks and weeks to figure it out. Even the best backup plans we've seen on these forums have resulted in a total loss of all data.

So if you are really going to tell me that you "aren't concerned about that" then I have to respectfully disagree. NOBODY has had their backups survive bad non-ECC RAM. Thinking you are going to be the exception is like telling me you are sure to win the lottery tonight. If so you'd better split it with me!

The bottom line when I argue ECC RAM is this: If you are aware of the risk and willing to take the risk, then go all in. Go with non-ECC RAM and don't cry if it ends badly. You knew better and you chose to make the decision you made. I just want people to make that informed decision. It's your data and I won't lose any sleep if you lose your family pictures. You might though. If you are okay with this risk, then go for it. There someone that wrote a blog about using non-ECC RAM and ZFS and explained why he went with it. He knows the risks, and he explained them on his blog. If you want to take the risk, go for it. I only created the ECC vs non-ECC thread because too many people don't know how dangerous this can be and I just wanted people informed. That's all.... informed. If your informed decision says go with non-ECC, then go for it. Your win or loss.

FreeNAS is an enterprise-class storage solution. Frankly, trying to tell us that your home server doesn't need ECC RAM is invalid. I could also simultaneously argue your exact points that FreeNAS isn't for you because its enterprise-class. So do yourself a favor and stop trying to tell us that your "home server" doesn't need server-grade and start thinking about the fact that this is server-grade stuff and you can either go with the flow or make your own dirt path. Just don't you dare tell us later we didn't warn you. ;)

 

[eliteassassin]

Well, let me tell you something. The whole ECC vs non-ECC debate is a debate because people:

1. Aren't aware of how damaging bad RAM is.
2. Don't realize that bad RAM will destroy your backups and it has taken people weeks and weeks to figure it out. Even the best backup plans we've seen on these forums have resulted in a total loss of all data.

So if you are really going to tell me that you "aren't concerned about that" then I have to respectfully disagree. NOBODY has had their backups survive bad non-ECC RAM. Thinking you are going to be the exception is like telling me you are sure to win the lottery tonight. If so you'd better split it with me!

The bottom line when I argue ECC RAM is this: If you are aware of the risk and willing to take the risk, then go all in. Go with non-ECC RAM and don't cry if it ends badly. You knew better and you chose to make the decision you made. I just want people to make that informed decision. It's your data and I won't lose any sleep if you lose your family pictures. You might though. If you are okay with this risk, then go for it. There someone that wrote a blog about using non-ECC RAM and ZFS and explained why he went with it. He knows the risks, and he explained them on his blog. If you want to take the risk, go for it. I only created the ECC vs non-ECC thread because too many people don't know how dangerous this can be and I just wanted people informed. That's all.... informed. If your informed decision says go with non-ECC, then go for it. Your win or loss.

FreeNAS is an enterprise-class storage solution. Frankly, trying to tell us that your home server doesn't need ECC RAM is invalid. I could also simultaneously argue your exact points that FreeNAS isn't for you because its enterprise-class. So do yourself a favor and stop trying to tell us that your "home server" doesn't need server-grade and start thinking about the fact that this is server-grade stuff and you can either go with the flow or make your own dirt path. Just don't you dare tell us later we didn't warn you. ;)

So not really sure why your so defensive or angry here...lol... nerd rage much?

My "home server" does in fact have ECC RAM, Server Class CPU, and Server Class Mother Board all from Dell's business site. I was simply stating that I don't see the need for using server class components on a home NAS and if this software requires that then fine... just means that it is not the right tool for this situation no need to reply with unnecessary comments such as yours, I am simply trying to gather information. After all is that not the idea of having a community supported forum such as this? In reference to the backup all backups regardless of how redundant\robust they may be all have a point at which they will fail so everyone on here that is using this system or any other storage system is expecting some level of risk. In regards to the ECC issue lets say that the FreeNAS box starts corrupting data due to the RAM, yes the real time backup of Crashplan will also backup these corrupted files. However since Crashplan allows you an unlimited amount of cloud storage space it can be configured to never delete anything and keep every version of every file therefor allowing you to revert the file back to a time in which it was not corrupted. So unless you are failing to explain this whole ECC thing correctly then I don't see how my solution with Crashplan does not solve this issue, at least for my particular situation. However I do appreciate your viewpoint and thoughts on this topic and would love to continue this discussion with you.

 

[Ericloewe]

I have to disagree with you on the cost of Server Motherboards to get ECC support you are looking at spending between $150 and $200 just for a cheep board then when you take into account the increase in CPU you are easily doubling the cost of the build.

What increase in CPU cost? Celerons, Pentiums and i3s support ECC, and Xeon E3s are priced competitively with i7s (and in part even with i5s). As for motherboards, yes, you do see a larger premium - but you're also getting a number of things that a 50 buck motherboard doesn't have (and even some that 100-150 buck motherboards don't have) - IPMI and dual Intel GbE controllers come to mind, as does the lack of useless (for a server) stuff like audio. Even my current server, a crummy WHS 2011 box, has a ~150 buck consumer motherboard - the cheaper stuff didn't even have Intel GbE controllers.

We're talking about a 100-200 buck increase in cost. Unless you're going with bottom of the barrel components (A crummy case that bends if you even look at it and a PSU kept from becoming a fireworks show by a wing and a prayer), I do not see how you can claim a near doubling of cost, even ignoring the cost of drives. Once those are factored in, the premium becomes much smaller, relatively speaking. Fortunately for us, low-end server hardware is competitively priced.

 

[cyberjock]

I was simply stating that I don't see the need for using server class components on a home NAS and if this software requires that then fine... just means that it is not the right tool for this situation no need to reply with unnecessary comments such as yours, I am simply trying to gather information.

And I'm telling you that you still need that EVEN for a home server. The minimum hardware needs are NOT based on your use case. They are based on the OS. That's all.

However since Crashplan allows you an unlimited amount of cloud storage space it can be configured to never delete anything and keep every version of every file therefor allowing you to revert the file back to a time in which it was not corrupted. So unless you are failing to explain this whole ECC thing correctly then I don't see how my solution with Crashplan does not solve this issue, at least for my particular situation. However I do appreciate your viewpoint and thoughts on this topic and would love to continue this discussion with you.

Ok, so how far back will you have to go? We've had people that, when the realize it was bad RAM, the realize they've run with bad RAM for 6 months. Are you really going to tell me that you are cool with rolling back to random dates and times in the past until you *think* your data isn't corrupt, then do a recovery? Seems like a lot of work when you could have just used ECC RAM.

Like I said, if you are okay with the risk and think you know better, feel free to do it. "stick it to the man" and show us you know better. I don't care. I won't lose sleep over it. Its not my data. The only reason I advocate it is to inform people of the risk. If you think you've mitigated the risk, then by all means do whatever you want. I'm here to inform, not to assuage you to do the right thing. If the facts don't assuage you to do the right thing I'm not sure why my opinion would, which is why I don't bother arguing over opinion. I put the facts out there. What you do with them is 100% without a doubt your own personal decision.

Again, you asked for our opinion and I gave it to you. I'd still do ECC RAM. If you don't like that opinion I am truely sorry. I don't give opinions of things without data to back it up, and I have zero data from you that makes me think that non-ECC RAM is a good use-case for you. If you think that my reasoning for disagreement is incorrect feel free to ignore my opinion. I won't have hurt feelings or lost data if you (or I) am wrong.