2017 alternative to Lenovo TS140 / Dell T20

[YLLYXZMZ]

Hi all, first time poster, long time lurker. I've been using zfs since the release of OpenSolaris 2008.05, and although much of my zfs experience is OpenSolaris, and more recently, zfsonlinux, I've also built several FreeNAS 9.x systems, and have built a couple of test FreeNAS 10 nightly build systems (which looks niiiice). This is just to say that I'm quite familiar with zfs, and I'm also well aware of the FreeNAS minimum requirements.

I've built systems as large as 360TB with 90 drives, but often I have smaller clients where a minimally sized system suffices. The hardware recommendations guide is great for the medium to large systems, and for the smallest systems, as far as I can tell the Lenovo TS140 and Dell T20 systems are the least expensive real server hardware that meets the FreeNAS minimum requirements and comes frequently recommended in the forums. There are great deals for both of these machines regularly on Amazon ($250 to $350 depending on i3 or Xeon, need to add more RAM, and obviously drives), and occasionally you can stumble on one of them for $200. Anyway, this is great, but both of these machines surfaced in early 2014. Server hardware doesn't move at light speed, but I was wondering if anyone had stumbled on a more recent equivalent to these two machines. There is a TS150 and a T30, from Lenovo and Dell, respectively, but I can't see those at anywhere near the prices you can find the TS140 and T20 for.

Anyway, just curious. And either way, would it make sense to add a shout out to these two systems (or their modern equivalents) on the hardware recommendations guide? That guide is very helpful (I've even used it for non-FreeNAS systems just so I didn't have to spend all day sifting through SuperMicro's site), but unless someone wants to correct me, I think the cheapest thing you could build based on that guide would cost a couple multiples of the TS140/T20 systems, so it might be worth pointing those out as the bare minimum entry level systems in the guide itself, assuming my impression that these are generally regarded as acceptable hardware for FreeNAS is correct. I think plenty of the home users trying to cobble together old desktops or random parts off Newegg could easily afford these systems, so it could be useful to have a clear "bare minimum, cheapest system" to recommend, a description of those systems' limitations, and also to have something to compare the better builds to in terms of additional capabilities and features.

 

[gpsguy]

Welcome to the forums!

@Digitaldreams and I have ordered the HPE ML10 Gen 9 [Intel i3-6100 Dual-Core 3.7GHz Processor, 4GB DDR4 Memory, DVD-RW, No OS, Gigabit Ethernet, USB 3.0 - 866965-S01]. I mentioned it in this forum post a few days ago - https://forums.freenas.org/index.ph...d-plex-server-plugin.51228/page-2#post-354907.

$200 USD from - http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5038747&CatId=329

I plan to initially use mine for Plex (running Linux or Windows). Digitaldreams will buy additional RAM and run FreeNAS. We'll probably have more information in a week or so (after they arrive).

 

[Arwen]

@gpsguy,
Whence you get it in, let us know a bit more details. For example;

• Slots available, and number of PCIe lanes in each
  
• Number of DIMM slots
• Back panel layout, (can't tell from picture). Basically the type and number of ports.
• Type of SATA controller, (Intel?).

 

[gpsguy]

Code:

1 x PCIe3 x 16
1 x PCIe3 x 8
2 x PCIe3 x 4

4 x USB 3.0 (back), 2 x USB 2.0 (front), 1 x USB 2.0 (internal)

2 x Display Ports

1 x Intel i219-LM NIC

4 DIMMS (max capacity 64GB) ECC required

Intel RST SATA RAID

Supposedly it will accommodate 6 x 3.5" SATA drives. But, one needs two additional kits for the 5 and 6th drive. Since this "Smart Buy" comes with a DVD drive, I wonder if one could put a 3.5" drive in it's bay.

Since most of my monitors only do VGA and/or DVI (and this doesn't have an iLO), *I* need to order a DP->VGA dongle.

Obviously, since it only comes with 4GB RAM, one would have to add additional RAM for FreeNAS.

My immediate desire was to buy something to run Plex on Linux or Windows. The i3-6100 has a Passmark score of 5461. I'd only transcode to 1-2 devices at a time.

I bought it with an eye towards being able to run FreeNAS on it. Or, recommend it as an entry level option for other FreeNAS users. I miss not having IPMI, but I'm willing to make a tradeoff.

 

[Jailer]

Thats a fantastic deal at $200. Add some memory and it would make a great box for learning esxi.

Now how to convince the warden that need one..........

 

[YLLYXZMZ]

@Digitaldreams and I have ordered the HPE ML10 Gen 9 [Intel i3-6100 Dual-Core 3.7GHz Processor, 4GB DDR4 Memory, DVD-RW, No OS, Gigabit Ethernet, USB 3.0 - 866965-S01].

That sounds like a good deal. Please do let us know how it goes. For what it's worth, the concern about the loss of remote management I believe applies to the T20 and TS140 as well -- with perhaps an exception if you get one of the Xeon models and use Intel AMT -- I see indications online that it should work, but I haven't tried it (i.e. http://www.lenovo.com/images/produc...ces/thinkserver_config_amt_ts140_ts440_tr.pdf). I don't believe any of the i3 models have vPro, though.

Also, I'm interested in hearing what else everyone has looked at recently in terms of low cost gear that fits FreeNAS's minimum requirements (server grade HW, ECC, etc.).

 

[Digitaldreams]

That sounds like a good deal. Please do let us know how it goes. For what it's worth, the concern about the loss of remote management I believe applies to the T20 and TS140 as well -- with perhaps an exception if you get one of the Xeon models and use Intel AMT -- I see indications online that it should work, but I haven't tried it (i.e. http://www.lenovo.com/images/produc...ces/thinkserver_config_amt_ts140_ts440_tr.pdf). I don't believe any of the i3 models have vPro, though.

Also, I'm interested in hearing what else everyone has looked at recently in terms of low cost gear that fits FreeNAS's minimum requirements (server grade HW, ECC, etc.).

Definitely will... I'll be on looking for help during the setup process as well.

The remote management access piece confuses me a little bit. What are you losing out exactly? I'm an network engineer but work on the switching and routing side so my server knowledge is lacking. The way I think of it is that if I need to access it remotely, I can just VPN into my home and open up a web browser to the server. I know that's not a clean way of doing it. I'm also not very familiar with Intel AMT but it seems to be used more for maintenance and monitoring. Does FreeNAS have any built in server monitoring tool or info?

 

[YLLYXZMZ]

The remote management access piece confuses me a little bit. What are you losing out exactly? I'm an network engineer but work on the switching and routing side so my server knowledge is lacking. The way I think of it is that if I need to access it remotely, I can just VPN into my home and open up a web browser to the server. I know that's not a clean way of doing it. I'm also not very familiar with Intel AMT but it seems to be used more for maintenance and monitoring. Does FreeNAS have any built in server monitoring tool or info?

Well, it depends on what you're doing. You can do anything you need to through the FreeNAS GUI or by connecting remotely via ssh unless, well, something goes wrong. It's not remote management of FreeNAS, per se, it's remote management of the server hardware itself. The remote management features allow you to control the system at a lower level than the operating system -- power on, power off (including a hard shutdown if a shutdown initiated from FreeNAS GUI hangs or something), BIOS access, install the OS remotely, and a hardware-level VNC which is useful sometimes if things aren't working properly. The remote management features help you do things that otherwise you'd physically have to be at the machine for, not just on the same network.

Usually server manufacturers have their own semi-proprietary system for this, and it often costs a ton of money. I've been charged as much as $300 for Dell's full blown remote management including the KVM capabilities. SuperMicro generally offers these features free of charge, which is probably one of the reasons it's popular here on the forums. Dell calls it iDRAC, HP calls it iLO, SuperMicro has IMPI, and Intel has AMT which is included in processors where vPro is enabled that allows some of the same things but isn't always possible to enable depending on the processor and the server board. This gets to the point that the T20 and TS140 MIGHT do remote management, if you had the right processor (probably any Xeon), and I'm seeing online that this ought to be the case. It's possible the same is true for the HP ML10 gen9 as well, since I see some discussion of setting up Intel AMT on that system as well, but it doesn't look like the i3-6100 processor supports it.

So the importance of this to you will range from zero to deal breaker, depending on your preferences. Some people looking for a super low cost FreeNAS system may want the lowest cost hardware that meets the minimum FreeNAS requirements AND has remote management capabilities.

 

[Digitaldreams]

Well, it depends on what you're doing. You can do anything you need to through the FreeNAS GUI or by connecting remotely via ssh unless, well, something goes wrong. It's not remote management of FreeNAS, per se, it's remote management of the server hardware itself. The remote management features allow you to control the system at a lower level than the operating system -- power on, power off (including a hard shutdown if a shutdown initiated from FreeNAS GUI hangs or something), BIOS access, install the OS remotely, and a hardware-level VNC which is useful sometimes if things aren't working properly. The remote management features help you do things that otherwise you'd physically have to be at the machine for, not just on the same network.

Usually server manufacturers have their own semi-proprietary system for this, and it often costs a ton of money. I've been charged as much as $300 for Dell's full blown remote management including the KVM capabilities. SuperMicro generally offers these features free of charge, which is probably one of the reasons it's popular here on the forums. Dell calls it iDRAC, HP calls it iLO, SuperMicro has IMPI, and Intel has AMT which is included in processors where vPro is enabled that allows some of the same things but isn't always possible to enable depending on the processor and the server board. This gets to the point that the T20 and TS140 MIGHT do remote management, if you had the right processor (probably any Xeon), and I'm seeing online that this ought to be the case. It's possible the same is true for the HP ML10 gen9 as well, since I see some discussion of setting up Intel AMT on that system as well, but it doesn't look like the i3-6100 processor supports it.

So the importance of this to you will range from zero to deal breaker, depending on your preferences. Some people looking for a super low cost FreeNAS system may want the lowest cost hardware that meets the minimum FreeNAS requirements AND has remote management capabilities.

Ah okay, that makes sense. That also pretty much tells me it's not a top priority for me. If something goes wrong with the server, I can wait until I get home to work on it.

 

[gpsguy]

Some people looking for a super low cost FreeNAS system may want the lowest cost hardware that meets the minimum FreeNAS requirements AND has remote management capabilities.

That's why I did mention that it lacks this feature. To build the equivalent Supermicro X11 with IPMI would probably cost at least $450.

 

[YLLYXZMZ]

That's why I did mention that it lacks this feature. To build the equivalent Supermicro X11 with IPMI would probably cost at least $450.

Yep. I've used SuperMicro IPMI, Dell iDRAC, and HP iLO, but I've never tried straight Intel AMT, though in theory that would offer at least basic remote management features. If so, then the Dell T20 with a Xeon processor on Amazon (www.amazon.com/Dell-PowerEdge-T20-Mini-tower-Server/dp/B011ZB45LM), which is usually $330 with free shipping (though it's not right now) might be the cheapest reasonable hardware with remote management you could find (and don't forget the extra RAM). Maybe someone who's messed with AMT can comment on its usability.

 

[Linkman]

FYI, I have a Dell T20, and with the Xeon CPU it does support Intel AMT. Not nearly as full featured as IPMI or iDRAC, but it is useful for remote rebooting, shutdown / restarts, and for configuring things remotely (like networking, for example). The last thing I used it for real world was to reboot the box and choose the DVD drive to boot from, to install FreeBSD. ( I sit next to it, so maybe that wasn't the best example. :) )

 

[YLLYXZMZ]

FYI, I have a Dell T20, and with the Xeon CPU it does support Intel AMT. Not nearly as full featured as IPMI or iDRAC, but it is useful for remote rebooting, shutdown / restarts, and for configuring things remotely (like networking, for example). The last thing I used it for real world was to reboot the box and choose the DVD drive to boot from, to install FreeBSD. ( I sit next to it, so maybe that wasn't the best example. :) )

Cool, that's good to know. Does it have the KVM / GUI console functionality?

 

[Linkman]

Unfortunately, no.

The AMT Web UI has entries for System Status (shows power status, IP, System ID, and system date and time); Hardware Information with entries for System (shows Platform, Baseboard, and BIOS info and versions), Processor, Memory, and Disk (memory and disk show information for each DIMM and HDD); Event Log (shows the event log entries); Remote Control (turn power off, cycle power on and off, and reset, with boot options of normal, boot from local CD/DVD, boot from local HDD); Power Policies (desktop on in S0, or desktop on in S0, ME Wake in S3, S4-5); Network Settings (DHCP, or IP / Subnet / Gateway, and DNS entries, IPv4 and IPv6); System Name Settings (host and domain name); and finally User Accounts (manage accounts that can access the AMT functions).

 

[fta]

Cool, that's good to know. Does it have the KVM / GUI console functionality?

Yes, although first time use is a pain to set up. After that you just attach to it with a VNC viewer.

 

[YLLYXZMZ]

Unfortunately, no.

I keep seeing vague (and usually very old) references to setting up KVM on AMT, often requiring a Windows program to enable it, maybe combined with some BIOS settings, etc.

https://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2011/12/08/intelr-amt-kvm-not-working

Here's a reference to getting it set up via Linux --

http://jefflane.org/v2/technology/setting-up-intel-amt-to-act-as-a-remote-kvm-in-linux/

Also, if you see the comment from @fta , he suggested that it was difficult to set up but it did work. Though you may have the same problem as I do right now -- I don't have any T20's I can tear up right now to test this with.

 

[fta]

Also, if you see the comment from @fta , he suggested that it was difficult to set up but it did work.

It's not difficult to set up, but it is painful because it requires software that is set up for running on windows. Once that part is done, you can do KVM from any machine that has a VNC viewer. The initial set up instructions can be found here. Note that you must set a password or it will not enable the VNC server.

EDIT: Before you do the steps from the link above, you have to turn on all the correct AMT functionality in your BIOS. I followed these steps to do that.

 

[Linkman]

I did not know that existed! Thanks for the heads up @fta and @YLLYXZMZ

I will definitely give that a shot, though the Windows requirement is a complete PITA. Fortunately, I keep a Windows VM around for tax season, so will give that a go.

 

[YLLYXZMZ]

Just a heads up to anyone that's interested, that HPE ML10 gen9 server that @gpsguy linked is $10 off right now. As if $199 wasn't cheap enough, it's $189 today (plus $20 shipping, but I'm pretty sure no tax).

 

[gpsguy]

It was $10 cheaper 2 weeks ago, but I sat on the fence for a week, before ordering one. Mine arrived, but it's still boxed up. Maybe next weekend.