The Strangest thing with a New Build

[ejn1111]

Was building a second Freenas in my home from spare PC parts (Asrock Z87M Extreme 4 Mobo, I7-4771 CPU, 4x4GB DDR3 plus some WD Red 2TB drives). I know not server grade parts but thought it would be ok as a cheap backup NAS for replication duties with my primary FreeNas.

I installed 11.3 on the new NAS while it was out in the open on my desk. Everything seemed fine (was connected to my USB keyboard and monitor and also tested without via another PC to the NAS Web gui). Then I moved the NAS to my built in cabinet where it was not connected to a monitor and keyboard and it would not appear on network and could not access the web gui from another PC. I went back and forth trying to isolate the issue (BIOS issue shutting down with no peripherals attached), bad cabling in the cabinet, etc etc. After all of the trouble shooting, I think the issue is this. In my cabinet, I have a Unifi Wifi Access point in the top of the cavity where the NAS was placed (maybe 1 foot above the NAS). The AP must be creating some type of interface with the NIC or motherboard making it lose network connectivity then the NAS shuts down. When I removed the AP, the NAS has been running solid ever since (a few hours now) inside the cabinet.

Does the above make sense? Can a close proximity Wifi access point somehow interfere with the NIC/Mobo of a NAS?

Curious if this sounds plausible or not.

Thanks!

 

[pab49162]

Interesting problem …

As far as your question about the close proximity of wifi signal interfering with a NIC or motherboard, it is theoretically possible but unlikely unless there is some type of hardware issue with a component. From a hardware design perspective, circuit board designers spent a lot of time on EMC (Electromagnetic Compatibility) compatibility and one aspect of that is sensitivity to emissions from other systems.

That said, it is possible that the AP signal is affecting the data packets in the Ethernet cable and somehow, that is causing the problem. Over the years, I have seen weird boot issues which seemed to have been caused by cables problems.

A couple things to try:

1. Unplug the Ethernet cable to the NAS and see if it will boot.

2. Try a different Ethernet cable. If your cable is CAT5e, try another CAT5e cable or a CAT6 cable if you have one.

3. Try rerouting the Ethernet cable in an alternate path between the switch, router, … and the NAS.

Hope this helps.

Paul

 

[ejn1111]

Thanks @pab49162 for the insights. One thing additional to mention is that I lost the IO shield for the motherboard so it is installed without one. I mention as there are some folks saying it serves some role to reduce static electricity. I did try several ethernet cables and all worked outside the cabinet and all stopped working inside the cabinet. One thing I didnt try yet is completely sticking the NAS in the cabinet with AP on and all peripherals still attached. Another bit of info is the AP was optimized for close proximity 5G on the VHT160 band on high power. Right now the AP is just off as I have several in the house and my office PC is connected via 10G Fiber. With it off, the NAS has been running flawless for several hours. Very perplexing. On rerouting, the cable has moved around a bit on all my back and forth trials so assume it was rerouted as much as I probably can.

 

[pab49162]

The missing IO shield could be contributing to the problem. It is designed to prevent EMI leakage going out of the case but it would prevent it from coming in.

Can you easily check to see if the NAS will boot without an Ethernet plugged in? That would be a good data point.

Paul

 

[ejn1111]

The missing IO shield could be contributing to the problem. It is designed to prevent EMI leakage going out of the case but it would prevent it from coming in.

Can you easily check to see if the NAS will boot without an Ethernet plugged in? That would be a good data point.

Paul

I can easily check in the morning and revert back. Thanks.

 

[pab49162]

Sounds like a plan.

If it doesn’t boot, try covering all of the IO connectors on the back of the PC with a piece of aluminum foil taped to the metal case of the PC and see if there is any difference.

Paul

 

[ejn1111]

@pab49162 I was able to do the test tonight of unplugging the ethernet cable, turning on the AP, boot up sequence freezes at BIOS screen or once it started to load FreeNAS and then quickly froze also. Doesn't matter if the NIC is connected or not it appears. When I turn off the AP, the NAS quickly boots up and all good. Haven't tried yet covering the IO with foil and running that test. I've include a pic to show the cabinet and AP.

 

[pab49162]

Thanks for the photo - makes it easier to understand your setup. I have a couple questions ...

I see a couple thin cables coming through the top hole. Are any of those cables connected to the NAS? If so, what are those cables?

When you boot the NAS, what cables are connected to the NAS?

Can you post a photo of the screen when the NAS freezes? Does it seem to freeze in the same place in the BIOS or FreeNAS boot sequence or it is different each time?

If you disconnect the boot device(s) and hard drives, will the PC successfully enter to the BIOS if selected using a keyboard?

 

[ejn1111]

Thanks for the photo - makes it easier to understand your setup. I have a couple questions ...

I see a couple thin cables coming through the top hole. Are any of those cables connected to the NAS? If so, what are those cables?

When you boot the NAS, what cables are connected to the NAS?

Can you post a photo of the screen when the NAS freezes? Does it seem to freeze in the same place in the BIOS or FreeNAS boot sequence or it is different each time?

If you disconnect the boot device(s) and hard drives, will the PC successfully enter to the BIOS if selected using a keyboard?

Those cables coming from the top are 1) HDMI going to NAS from Monitor, 2) USB Keyboard to NAS, 3) 9v power for cordless phone above to power strip, big cable going more horizontal is a speaker cable for desktop speakers not involved with NAS. There is also a yellow lamp cord going from lamp to outlet. The white cable you see is a Cat6 cable going to AP. I have a similar white Cat6 that was plugged to NAS.

The freeze screen is just the Asrock BIOS splash screen (the one before it enters the BIOS). Disconnecting the Boot and Hard drives is kind of a pain so not really keen on that one if can be avoided.

When I boot the NAS in the config you requested, I have a USB keyboard, HDMI monitor and power cable only. In prior config, i just had ethernet to NIC and power with the idea of accessing the Web Gui from another PC. The latter has worked fine when the AP is off.

 

[pab49162]

Thanks for the info ...

Can you try booting the system with only the HDMI and power cable connected? I don’t think there will be any difference but better not to assume.

Assuming no difference, I would try the aluminum foil to cover the IO connectors. To minimize things, I would only connect the HDMI and power cables.

 

[pab49162]

One other idea, since disconnecting the boot and hard drives isn't easy, try disabling the SATA ports in the BIOS. After doing that, see if you can get past the splash screen.

 

[ejn1111]

One other idea, since disconnecting the boot and hard drives isn't easy, try disabling the SATA ports in the BIOS. After doing that, see if you can get past the splash screen.

I tried another dimension which was easy to do from my office PC. Setting power to "Low" on the 2.4 and 5G radios in the AP eliminated the problem also. I think clearly the AP proximity is causing some interference with the mobo in some way. When I started trouble shooting, not completely knowing the AP was the catalyst for this problem, I ordered another mobo on Ebay basis some forum recommendations for budget builds (Supermicro X9SCM-F). I think easiest thing for me is to just keep the AP on low radio for now and then just test with the new mobo which comes next week and also has an IO shield. Still quite a strange troubleshooting sequence with the AP proximity killing the NAS. Don't think I've seen that yet so wanted to share with the forum. Appreciate all the help!!!

 

[pab49162]

Thanks for the update and this is definitely a strange one.

I concur that the AP's proximity is generating some type of interference with NAS. Normally, the amount of power needed to cause such problems is more than I would expect from an AP. But the testing you have done seems to indicate that isn't the case. Hopefully, the new motherboard won't exhibit the same problems.

One last thought - does you current motherboard have any type of built-in wifi capability? I have seen problems when a laptop or other wireless device is too close (within 1 to 2 feet) to the wireless router.

 

[ejn1111]

Thanks for the update and this is definitely a strange one.

I concur that the AP's proximity is generating some type of interference with NAS. Normally, the amount of power needed to cause such problems is more than I would expect from an AP. But the testing you have done seems to indicate that isn't the case. Hopefully, the new motherboard won't exhibit the same problems.

One last thought - does you current motherboard have any type of built-in wifi capability? I have seen problems when a laptop or other wireless device is too close (within 1 to 2 feet) to the wireless router.

Thanks. This particular board (Asrock Z87M Extreme4) does not have wifi. The Unifi AP that is in that cabinet is a High Density Model that can handle 500+ concurrent users and a max transmit power of 25 dBm (Unifi UAP-AC-HD). Maybe this is playing into the strength of the interference.

 

[pab49162]

A max transmit power of 25 dBm is 320 mW which is pretty powerful transmit signal. Add on some antenna gain and power will be even highter.

With your NAS sitting about 1 foot away and no IO shield, I could see that this that might cause problems. Potentially something inside your box, like a SATA cable, it acting like an antenna and picking up some interference.

It will be interesting to see if the new motherboard has issues.

 

[ejn1111]

@pab49162 Indeed it will be a good test. I will let you know after I do it but ultimately I think I'm going to move that AP to a different location just to minimize the risk of interference. There are 5 sata cables/connections in the box so agree that could be 5 antennas feeding the motherboard electrical noise. I have other places I can relocate that AP to...