Norco RPC-4220 backplane [no signal?]

[Allan_M]

Long story short: I can't see my drives, when they are put inside the hot swap bays (mini SAS connectivity).

Hardware:
X10SLL+-F (4x SATA2 + 2x SATA3 = 6x onboard SATA total)
Core i3-4170 (plenty, plenty of performance for our needs)
16 GB ECC DDR3 (planning on adding 16 GB, for a 32 GB total)
2x 9211-8i HBAs (got them today and flashed to IT-mode right away)
32 GB Patriot Warp (Vdev/Pool: dotsys - had it laying around anyway)
4x 1 TB 3.5" HDDs (Z1/Pool: old_nas - drives, from our old Qnap NAS)
Case: Norco RPC-4220 (20 bays, 5x mini SAS on backplane)

'Extra'/spare drives:
3x 320 GB 2.5" HDDs (planning: Z1/pool)
3x 120 GB 2.5" HDDs (planning: Z1/pool)
1x 500 GB 3.5" HDD (salvaged from a 2011 21.5 iMac)
1x 120 Samsung EVO 840 SSD (had it laying around)

Intention:
To use the two HBAs for four of the mini SAS ports, and four of the 6 SATA connections on the motherboard for the last mini SAS port on the backplane - hence, the reverse breakout cable. From top to bottom (rows):

[1]: SFF-8087 to 4x SATA2 on motherboard
[2]: SFF-8087 to HBA1 [0-3]
[3]: SFF-8087 to HBA1 [4-7]
[4]: SFF-8087 to HBA2 [0-3]
[5]: SFF-8087 to HBA2 [4-7]

But, when I hook it up like that, and plug the drives in, none of them are detected...

Now for the 'weird' part:
However. If I take the reverse breakout SFF-8087 to 4x SATA cable, and plug that into one of the 9211-8is, I can see those four drives connected to the HBA. It's somewhat backwards, because the cable was supposed to be a 'reverse' cable (4x SATA host/motherboard to SFF-8087 device).

These are the cables I have ordered:
1x Reverse breakout cable (1st try): http://www.ebay.com/itm/321973776634
6x SFF-8087 cables: http://www.ebay.com/itm/201284000348
1x Reverse breakout cable (2nd try, awaiting arrival): http://www.ebay.com/itm/262232512838

I'm well aware, that Norco cases aren't in high regards on these parts - but I got the case for around $45 (used), so I figured I'd give it a try. I thought I did my research on cables and whatnot but feel kinda stupid right now, for spending this much on hardware and then get sidetracked by things that should just work.

What did I do wrong?
(Besides going for Norco and not something-something-SuperMicro)

 

[Ericloewe]

Maybe they just sold you the wrong cables... both times?

Yeah, it's weird.

It could be a nonstandard backplane with incorrect wiring, but that would be crazy.

 

[jgreco]

What did I do wrong?
(Besides going for Norco and not something-something-SuperMicro)

That bit of awesomeness means you deserve an answer ;-)

If you're positive that the cables are the correct ones, I'm going to take a stab and guess that you've failed to seat the SFF8087 connectors correctly. This is really a thing. They're finicky. And yes, especially if you have any sort of OCD, getting the first one "wrong" might well result in getting the others wrong. Take all the cables out. Install one HBA. Install one SFF8087-8087 to the topmost backplane. Carefully inspect the seating of the connector. The lock clip has to get way up in there and reach inside the shell of the socket, on both sides, like this:

You may actually have to press the lock clip while inserting to get a proper fit. If you can give a light tug at the SFF8087 (without touching the lock clip) and it comes back out, it ain't in there, it won't work, try again.

The other obvious alternative? Make sure your backplane is fully powered. Unfortunately they stopped putting activity lights on HDD's like ~20 years ago and I think that sucks so bad. But double and triple check the wiring anyways.

Those are the two likely issues I can think of.

 

[Allan_M]

If you're positive that the cables are the correct ones, I'm going to take a stab and guess that you've failed to seat the SFF8087 connectors correctly.

I am, by no means, certain that the cables are correct. I am, however, fairly certain in my proficiency regarding plugging in cables. Also SFF-8087 connectors - especially since I can get it working with the reverse breakout cable. Trust me, I have checked, double- and triple checked - and again this morning, since reading your post ,quadruple checked. This lends me to believe, that either the SFF-8087 to SFF-8087 cables are wrong or defective, or...

The other obvious alternative? Make sure your backplane is fully powered. Unfortunately they stopped putting activity lights on HDD's like ~20 years ago and I think that sucks so bad. But double and triple check the wiring anyways. Those are the two likely issues I can think of.

I thought this myself as well. There are two molex connectors on each board on the backplane. Unfortunately, the PSU (model no.: SS-850KM F3) only came with one modular cable with exactly five connectors. Before I got the hardware, I took some time disassembling the case and getting to know the wirering and found, that the two connectors must be there in the case one was to use some sort of redundant PSU-solution.

I did try, unplugging the other backplane-boards and only power up one board, also with two molex plugs connected. No dice.

I'm running out of ideas here, and are seriously considering buying a new/another case. Though this does not solve the problem, if it turns out the SFF-8087 to SFF-8087 cables are wrong or defective.

On a side-note; while I was checking out the backplane boards (with a multimeter), I found that there are three LED colors. Green, blue and red. The sleds, are lit green, when a drive is plugged in. Some of the harddrives are either blinking or 'breathing' blue but not all of them (specific to model/brand).

Maybe they just sold you the wrong cables... both times? Yeah, it's weird. It could be a nonstandard backplane with incorrect wiring, but that would be crazy.

At this point, I'm almost ready to believe anything...

 

[jgreco]

Okay, well, hm.

I got no great guesses here. It sounds like the "reverse" cable you got - ain't. See if there are any part numbers on it and Google the heck out of them if so.

If it's actually a standard breakout, go through each of your 9211-8i ports and use that cable to make sure every channel works, by hooking up drives, as you did before. This will help you gain confidence that an expensive bit of your system (9211's) work right.

Then I would suggest obtaining a reverse breakout from a different source, which it seems you're doing. If so, then go about this from the reverse angle. Plug in 4x SATA into the mainboard and walk through the backplanes one at a time, verifying each one shows up with 4 disks. This is all tedious of course, but well worth it. Then you just have to puzzle out if your 8087-8087 cables might be bad or something.

Also, you probably want to increase the number of Molex power connections. All the backplanes should be fully powered. At a minimum, it means that you're not overly stressing a single connection. The crappy-but-works way to do that is with a drive power "Y". The better way to do it is to actually splice in or crimp on an additional Molex or two, but only if you're comfortable with doing so.

 

[Allan_M]

It sounds like the "reverse" cable you got - ain't. See if there are any part numbers on it and Google the heck out of them if so.

Did that. Ends up on basically the same part from eBay every time - I think, they sent me the wrong cable (it more or less says 'SAS to SATA' on the label and not 'SATA to SAS').

If it's actually a standard breakout, go through each of your 9211-8i ports and use that cable to make sure every channel works, by hooking up drives, as you did before. This will help you gain confidence that an expensive bit of your system (9211's) work right.

Did that. Both ports, on both controllers, correctly updates in real time - as I'd expect them to in the first place - and shows the connected harddrives.

Then I would suggest obtaining a reverse breakout from a different source, which it seems you're doing [1]. If so, then go about this from the reverse angle. Plug in 4x SATA into the mainboard and walk through the backplanes one at a time, verifying each one shows up with 4 disks. This is all tedious of course, but well worth it. Then you just have to puzzle out if your 8087-8087 cables might be bad or something.[2]

(the numbers in bold are my additions to the above quote)

[1]: Correct.
[2]: More or less did that already, with all six cables, both ends ('A-end' on HBA and 'B-end' on backplane, then reverse) on all backplanes, with 1-4 harddrive on the respective backplane. Tedious, yes, but I'm pretty sure that either all six cables are defective/wrong or all five backplane-PCBs are defective in some way.

Also, you probably want to increase the number of Molex power connections [1]. All the backplanes should be fully powered [2]. At a minimum, it means that you're not overly stressing a single connection [3]. The crappy-but-works way to do that is with a drive power "Y" [4]. The better way to do it is to actually splice in or crimp on an additional Molex or two, but only if you're comfortable with doing so [5].

(the numbers in bold are my additions to the above quote)

[1] Thought about that too, but tried to be proactive about that - read on for further information.
[2] I've tried with all five backplanes powered up, only one, only two, and so on.
[3] According to the spec. from Seasonic, that shouldn't really be a problem. Also, I'm able to power up four 3.5" HDD via the normal SATA-power cables.
[4] Sorry. I'm not sure I fully understand this one?
[5] No problem. Got my first computer back in the 90's, and grew up with creating/modding my own cables.

An addition to [5]: I tried to be proactive, regarding the power thing, and took a multimeter and measured pass trough on the connectors - that's how I figured out how the LEDs are connected, but also, that the two molex connectors on each backplane PCB are hardwired together without any further electronic components between them - IC's, resistors, an so on. I figured, they must be connected in a sort of 'reverse'-Y way, if one were to use redundant PSUs or something like that.

Today, I removed all the backplanes (after some further and rather troublesome reading - dead harddrives, lost data, and so on) and used the SFF-8087 to SATA connector and the four onboard SATAs to hook up 8 drives (see attached images below).

1x 32 GB SSD
4x 1 TB HDDs@Z1
3x 320 GB HDDs@Z1

Until the new reverse breakout cable arrives, this will suffice - and I thought about it further. If there are any credence in the numerous posts on this and other forums, regarding the Norco backplanes, I think I'm quite contend on just settling with HBA -> SATA connections. The few times I'm going to do some HDD-swap, I'll just pop open the case. There are, after all, still room for 20 HDDs.

Thank you for your responses and that you took the time to make sure I tried everything within reason.

Trust me; After all this, I'm looking at more reputable cases right now [any suggestions?]

 

[rogerh]

Re [3] above, even if Seasonic is happy with the current rating of one Molex, the backplane manufacturer may want the current split between two of them - especially with more esoteric higher peak current drives. An irrelevant point as far as the present problem is concerned if the backplane has no circuitry to check, of course.

 

[jgreco]

Not coming up with anything else meaningful...

 

[Allan_M]

Well. This is going to be... yeah.

I received the new cable - this time a 'true' reverse breakout (SFF-8087 to 4x SATA on the motherboard) - and connected it to one of the backplanes. Sure enough, suddenly it works.

I'm going to reinstall the remaining backplanes and check if all of them Works. If they do, I have to look at the SFF-8087 to SFF-8087 cables and see if I can find ones that are compatible. Stay tuned.

 

[jgreco]

Well. This is going to be... yeah.

I received the new cable - this time a 'true' reverse breakout (SFF-8087 to 4x SATA on the motherboard) - and connected it to one of the backplanes. Sure enough, suddenly it works.

I'm going to reinstall the remaining backplanes and check if all of them Works. If they do, I have to look at the SFF-8087 to SFF-8087 cables and see if I can find ones that are compatible. Stay tuned.

Good to hear! Good luck on the rest of it.

 

[Allan_M]

Good to hear! Good luck on the rest of it.

Went through all bays and backplanes. Turns out, the backplanes are fine, both with individual disks and all 5 backplane populated with four disks each.

I think we can isolate the issue to the cables in question. I'm gonna try with the ones that Norco themself are selling, that should work. If I get it working, the next step is to buy individual disks - I have my eyes set on these disks - ~$105 for the first round.

 

[Ericloewe]

I have my eyes set on these disks - ~$105 for the first round.

The USD (or Euro, in practice) price on those sounds nice. ~12% off their price for the last two or three years. Of course, I don't know their typical price in Denmark. :p

 

[Allan_M]

The USD (or Euro, in practice) price on those sounds nice. ~12% off their price for the last two or three years. Of course, I don't know their typical price in Denmark. :p

They have been hovering around 900-1,000 DKK (~$103-114) for quite some time - at a local vendor (the one in the link).

 

[Allan_M]

Well. Received some new cables the other day (ordered some extra molex cables, to fill out the plugs in the backplane - just in case, and some SAS-cables from Norco). It turns out, the HBAs only register some of the HDDs.

Just to be clear, so everybody's on the same page*:

Mobo SATA (connected via reverse breakout):
4x 1 TB @Z1 (all are detected)

HBA1:
1: 1x 500 GB (is detected)
2: No drives

HBA2:
1: 3x 120 GB (one is detected)
2: 3x 320 GB (two are detected)

So. The four drives, connected to the motherboard via reverse breakout cable, are just fine.
One controller, detects the sole 500 GB HDD connected.
The other controller, only detects three out of six drives.

Any suggestions to what might be the cause of this?

* The HBAs and backplanes seem to be ok.
If I swap the drives to another backplane and use the reverse breakout, all disks shows up - they are then connected directly to the motherboard.
The same goes, if I swap out the backplane for the SATA to SAS cable, and plug that into either of the HBAs.

 

[jgreco]

No, but try moving the mobo SATA to the backplane you've got on HBA2 and see what happens. There've been some reports that SATA 1 drives might no longer be supported by the current HBA firmware, so it'd be interesting to see if that might be an issue.

 

[Allan_M]

No, but try moving the mobo SATA to the backplane you've got on HBA2 and see what happens. There've been some reports that SATA 1 drives might no longer be supported by the current HBA firmware, so it'd be interesting to see if that might be an issue.

I pulled all the drives, and there might be some credence to what you state. It appears that some of the drives indeed are SATA1 drives (one 320 GB and one 120 GB). But accordingly to my findings, it doesn't add up.

Here is my findings:

• SATA1:
  • 120 GB, Hitachi 5k250-120 (model: HTS542512K9SA00)
  • 320 GB, WD3200BEVS (model: WD3200BEVS-60VAT0)
• SATA2:
  • 120 GB, Toshiba MK1255GSX (model: HDD2H26)
  • 120 GB, Toshiba MK1237GSX (model: HDD2D62)
  • 320 GB, Seagate Momentus 5400.5 (model: ST9320320AS)
  • 320 GB, WD3200BEVT (model: WD3200BEVT-22ZCT0)
  • 500 GB, WD5000AAKS (model: WD5000AAKS-402AA0)

To be honest, it doesn't bother me that much. These are just some old drives I had lying around - but was worried something else was wrong. I'm gonna try it out - I'll report back later.

 

[Allan_M]

No, but try moving the mobo SATA to the backplane you've got on HBA2 and see what happens. There've been some reports that SATA 1 drives might no longer be supported by the current HBA firmware, so it'd be interesting to see if that might be an issue.

Moved the drives around, and everything now seems to work just fine.

Again. Thank you :)

 

[jgreco]

Well that's not ideal. :-( Perhaps it's true though.