New to FreeNAS - I might be in way over my head

[Mirfster]

Everyone just read "ECC vs non-ECC RAM and ZFS"; then we can all hold hands around the campfire and sing Kumbya... :P

 

[Mark Holtz]

Just to relate my own experience.... and please remember, I am still learning... I only completed my desired FreeNAS build in the past month.

No matter how much documentation you read, there is nothing like hands-on experimentation with an old system. I started out with an old system that was junked at work, put in an older hard drive (singular), and just starting playing around with FreeNAS. The memory was non-ECC, and the hard drive was only 1TB in size. I fully expected to lose my data under that configuration (which didn't happen). It allowed me, however, to play around with the functionality of the server, make mistakes with the CIFS shares, and try out some of the plug-ins. This is also an excellent way to learn how snapshots work.
If you are going to set this up in a Windows environment, you will need to know the quirks of CIPS shares. Once you have handled several of them, it becomes a piece of cake.
By the time I had completed my experimentation, I had a better concept of what I wanted my actual production FreeNAS server. I know I have folks who look at my configuration and say "overkill". But, it fits what I want to do today....and next year.

 

[Dekade]

...By the time I had completed my experimentation, I had a better concept of what I wanted my actual production FreeNAS server. I know I have folks who look at my configuration and say "overkill". But, it fits what I want to do today....and next year.

I am in the same boat. The forum did make me understand the necessity of a properly configured hardware setup. However, at the same time the forum asserted no harm done in experimenting and getting my feet wet with an old overkill computer. I will also expand to the correct hardware in the future as my soho grows. I will execute daily backups as my safeguard - (a practice I have been faithful with for over 12 years). I also have read some articles on the ECC issue. Don't want to go there for my input as a newbie. I am, however, going to read the link in post #21. Mirfster has helped me in the last few days so I owe it to him/her to absorb the contents of the article and debate.

 

[Dekade]

PLEASE understand that I am not bitter to this forum, or any of its very nice members, in the post that follows. Just flat out confused.

Okay - help me understand. I am about ready to nix the entire server idea and return all the hardware I have ordered (NAS drives, PSU etc.). I respect this forum, HOWEVER, the fear factor that is thrown into the picture of old hardware vs proper hardware, ECC vs Non ECC, etc. is at a level of astronomical. "True it is" that one cannot believe everything one reads on the internet. Nonetheless, there are tons of articles on building a server with old hardware and then installing FreeNAS. Then you get to the FreeNAS forum and it's like you have some kind of venereal disease if you even consider using old hardware especially non ECC RAM.

Next I go to Amahi and a person can't even get a new account on their forum. Yet, the Amahi site has a ton of testimonials on the greatness and supposed ease of Amahi. Yet, and thus, once again, you cannot confront them on the issue of ECC because they are not accepting new forum registrants.

I fully understand that FreeNAS is a great solution for those that have money - even a small amount of money. And - there are a ton of very smart people on this forum. BUT, for those of us that try to follow the path of 'non preferred' hardware I, for one, get totally confused within the server world.

Of course I do not want to lose or corrupt data, BUT, where is the medium here, if any??? I had such great hopes in my startup position for FreeNAS to be a great help to me. It has just about been shattered. I desperately need to know the practicality vs the technicality of the forum regarding all of this.

I want so badly to proceed with FreeNAS but can't visualize making it my life's ambition instead of trying to create a small office home office and support my family. I guess I might just have to go back to keeping my peer-to-peer concept in Windows 10 as the only means of sharing and accessing files.

Please help clarify all of this fear creation. It might be best for FreeNAS to make it mandatory that the forum will not give out any assistance unless a member can state/validate all of their hardware and that it is the proper hardware (as per the FreeNAS intention). I don't know. Just totally disappointed and confused right now.

Thank you for listening and any answer(s) that will come forth.

 

[Bidule0hm]

Okay - help me understand. I am about ready to nix the entire server idea and return all the hardware I have ordered (NAS drives, PSU etc.). I respect this forum, HOWEVER, the fear factor that is thrown into the picture of old hardware vs proper hardware, ECC vs Non ECC, etc. is at a level of astronomical. "True it is" that one cannot believe everything one reads on the internet. Nonetheless, there are tons of articles on building a server with old hardware and then installing FreeNAS. Then you get to the FreeNAS forum and it's like you have some kind of venereal disease if you even consider using old hardware especially non ECC RAM.

Ok, just to clarify some things:

Old hardware is okay as long as it meets the requirements. Old desktop will likely not, old server will probably. The main problem with old hardware is that it suck far more power than recent hardware to do the same things. But if it meets the requirements then no problem ;)

ECC isn't required but is more than strongly recommended. FreeNAS will run no problem on non-ECC RAM but if the RAM start to fail it's probably the end of your data. It's up to you if you want to take that risk or not.

 

[wblock]

I tried to look at the Amahi site yesterday, but it was down. In any case, it sounds like they cater to a vastly different group. "Easy" is one thing, reliable another.

The confusion is understandable. You are going to have daily backups, which should eliminate the fear either way. Why not try it?

 

[Nick2253]

The forum did make me understand the necessity of a properly configured hardware setup. However, at the same time the forum asserted no harm done in experimenting and getting my feet wet with an old overkill computer.

You seem to imply that there's some kind of contradiction here. When you're dealing with live data, you want a proper setup to protect that data. If you're just experimenting on features and configuration steps, it really doesn't matter what hardware you're using, because the data that you're experimenting with should not be real or live data.

Nonetheless, there are tons of articles on building a server with old hardware and then installing FreeNAS. Then you get to the FreeNAS forum and it's like you have some kind of venereal disease if you even consider using old hardware especially non ECC RAM.

As @Bidule0hm says, there is no problem with old hardware that meets the requirements. In fact, I'd rather have a 5+ y/o server platform than a brand new desktop platform. And there are multiple reasons for this.

The big one (other than ECC compatibility), is that server hardware is usually more reliable than its desktop counterpart. And that is because the hardware is designed for different purposes. Server hardware typically runs 24/7, often with a medium to high load at all times. Desktop hardware, on the other hand, typically runs only a few hours a day, and even if it is on all the time, is only loaded occasionally. Furthermore, servers are often in operation for 5 or more years, while people typically replace their computers every three years. That means that desktop manufacturers can cut corners relative to server manufacturers on certain things. That's not to say they make a sabotaged product, not at all; they simply make a product that is suitable for its planned use: a desktop computer.

Of course I do not want to lose or corrupt data, BUT, where is the medium here, if any???

Unfortunately, data corruption is kind of a binary thing: either it's corrupt, or it isn't. So what's important is to minimize the risk that sources of corruption will actually corrupt your data. And these sources are many: bad memory, bad disks, bad controllers, bad network, bad hardware, EM noise, etc. Some of those are more common, and some are very rare. ZFS goes a long way to addressing some of those sources. ECC goes a long way to addressing many of the others.

So, from that perspective, what is an allowable risk to your data? It's difficult to put a firm number on all things, since not all sources of risk are quantitatively understood, but usually we can get a good ballpark idea. If you say that having 3+ copies of your data on at least three different storage mediums in three locations at least 1000 miles from each other is the best case scenario, and having one copy of your data on a 10+ y/o desktop PC is the worst case scenario, how do you define the middle? Is that what you're talking about in finding the middle? From that perspective, I'd say that a FreeNAS system running on relatively recent server hardware with a remote backup would be the middle.

I want so badly to proceed with FreeNAS but can't visualize making it my life's ambition instead of trying to create a small office home office and support my family. I guess I might just have to go back to keeping my peer-to-peer concept in Windows 10 as the only means of sharing and accessing files.

Two things here: first, why do you so badly want to proceed with FreeNAS? No one is forcing you to use FreeNAS. And even if you do use FreeNAS, no one is forcing you to do what we're saying. But if you do use FreeNAS, we want you to be as successful as possible. And since most people who turn to FreeNAS do so for the data protection benefits of ZFS, we want to help you not shoot yourself in the foot because you mad an uninformed decision regarding ECC or hardware. If you are informed, and you want to take that risk, more power to you.

Second thing: I think you're getting a little too worked up over the difficulty of FreeNAS. There's no need to make it your life's ambition; I think that's just a teensy bit of a straw man. I mean, there are at least a few thousand people using FreeNAS on this forum that have fewer posts than you, and I'd bet they have no more computer savvy than you do.

In the end, if it's really causing you that much stress, then, for the sake of your sanity and your business, I'd advise you to not use FreeNAS, to leave this forum far behind, and to go back to whatever it was you were doing.

 

[adrianwi]

Of course I do not want to lose or corrupt data, BUT, where is the medium here, if any???

I think this is the crux of your somewhat polite rant :D

There isn't a 'medium here' - you either have your data or you don't! You might argue that loosing some of your data would be a middle ground, but it's not really. Loosing some of the data might be acceptable (you might be able to rip it from DVD again) where as loosing other data probably isn't (family photos) but to me this is where a backup strategy comes in, not the strategy for primary storage. I have about 13TB of data stored on FreeNAS, which is all backed up to another in the same room. I also have about 3TB of that stored in CrashPlan (the family photos, company files and accounts, etc.) which is the stuff that god forbid someone breaks into my house or it burns to the ground, I know I can still access.

If you genuinely feel that there is a happy medium, then perhaps you're right and a FreeNAS like solution isn't for you?

 

[Mirfster]

In a nutshell, the difference between Freenas and the other consumer stuff is the straightforward information provided here. No one here is really going to tell you anything else but the truth.

Freenas is free and the forum contributors are all volunteers. We have no alternative motives and are not pushing for any kind of sales.

Our advice is based on experience (both good and bad) and only provided in hopes of preventing others from the bad experiences.

In the end it is ultimately your choice on what to use and how much time you are willing to invest.

My only advice would be to maintain regular backups of your data regardless of the solution. That goes for using Freenas as well.

 

[Dekade]

I have thoroughly read posts #25 - #28. I guess I do seem to imply a contradiction of sorts. Here is why I chose FreeNAS. A few weeks ago upon initially going to www.freenas.org here is what greeted me on the home page (as well as everyone else that visits) - What is FreeNAS? FreeNAS is an operating system that can be installed on virtually any hardware platform to share data over a network. FreeNAS is the simplest way to create a centralized and easily accessible place for your data. Use FreeNAS with ZFS to protect, store, backup, all of your data. FreeNAS is used everywhere, for the home, small business, and the enterprise.

The above is the core marketing text that has led to the majority of my confusion, misunderstanding, and interaction with this forum. Also, there is so much confidence testified to, over the internet, about FreeNAS being the most reliable NAS setup. If the above purple colored paragraph had more directly implied a reference to 'server grade hardware' then I would not have gotten off track and headed in the wrong direction of over confidence and contentedness about 'old hardware' as in PC. Instead, the paragraph 'generalizes'.

None of my problems have been the forums fault. I am actually very pleased at how all of you have been so kind in trying to straighten me out.

I am a perfectionist ... And when I assumed that I had clear sailing with my old hardware I set out to make it as good as possible. Then as time progressed I became aware that my non-ECC ram was definitely a fly in the ointment. A fly in the ointment in such a way that my perfectionism clearly saw the need for the correct hardware to be employed. I was only hoping that I could get by for 6 to 18 months until the company brought in more capital for investment towards server hardware.

..."Easy" is one thing, reliable another. The confusion is understandable. You are going to have daily backups, which should eliminate the fear either way. Why not try it?

Exactly my concern. My main fear factor is the ECC issue. If I back up bad or corrupted data as a result of RAM issues then I have wasted tons of time. The real bad part is WHEN do I actually discover that I have bad data! No one can answer that.

So, I guess I'll sit back and think this all out. I am very tempted to risk it because I would like to have experience under my belt by using FreeNAS, per an actual daily operations environment, for when I do get the quality hardware; and for when I need to employ more advanced techniques that FreeNAS flaunts via enterprise implementation.

Let me ask another question. What are the list of options/features that I should actually be looking for on Ebay if I were searching for a very, very, very inexpensive "old server hardware setup"????

 

[CraigD]

Let me ask another question. What are the list of options/features that I should actually be looking for on Ebay if I were searching for a very, very, very inexpensive "old server hardware setup"????

A CPU and motherboard that runs with and supports 16GB of ECC RAM

I have no idea what cheap is for you, maybe an old Lenovo Server? just add more RAM and HDDs

I am strictly a home user, so my advice may only be worth what you paid for it

Have Fun

 

[Dekade]

Thanks CraigD, I'll see what others have to say also

 

[Bidule0hm]

I have thoroughly read posts #25 - #28. I guess I do seem to imply a contradiction of sorts. Here is why I chose FreeNAS. A few weeks ago upon initially going to www.freenas.org here is what greeted me on the home page (as well as everyone else that visits) - What is FreeNAS? FreeNAS is an operating system that can be installed on virtually any hardware platform to share data over a network. FreeNAS is the simplest way to create a centralized and easily accessible place for your data. Use FreeNAS with ZFS to protect, store, backup, all of your data. FreeNAS is used everywhere, for the home, small business, and the enterprise.

The above is the core marketing text that has led to the majority of my confusion, misunderstanding, and interaction with this forum. Also, there is so much confidence testified to, over the internet, about FreeNAS being the most reliable NAS setup. If the above purple colored paragraph had more directly implied a reference to 'server grade hardware' then I would not have gotten off track and headed in the wrong direction of over confidence and contentedness about 'old hardware' as in PC. Instead, the paragraph 'generalizes'.

I think that by "any" they mean you don't need to buy hardware from them, you can install FreeNAS on the hardware you want. But I agree it can be misleading.

 

[Mirfster]

I run all old Dell Servers. All of mine are the Dell C2100/FS12-TY. If so inclined search for "Ode to the Dell" post by me if you want to see what I do with them.

WestMere Heeeeere! :)

 

[gpsguy]

I'm sorry that you've been caught in the crossfire between what iXsystems marketing department is saying and what's being said on the forum.

It's *my* belief, that their statement "FreeNAS is an operating system that can be installed on virtually any hardware platform to share data over a network" means just that, as long as it meets the minimum requirements like 8GB of RAM, etc.

I realize the sticking point right now, revolves around ECC RAM. Obviously there's the long thread on ECC vs non-ECC. But, one could also argue that iXsystem's original "Mini" didn't support ECC RAM. Read this discussion and the remarks from jpaetzel and sef - https://forums.freenas.org/index.php?threads/lost-the-assumption-game.20263/

One of the issues that we have on the forum, is that for a number of years, there was virtually no support by anyone from iXsystems. They develop the FeeNAS product, as a proving ground for TrueNAS (their commerical product). Users, like myself, are volunteers who provide support, but have no affiliation with iXsystems. As ambassadors (maybe an overstatement) for FreeNAS, we want users to have a positive experience.

As someone who works in with servers and storage on my day job, I, like most of the other responders, will recommend a system that supports ECC RAM.

Having been on the forum for 4+ years, I know FreeNAS is used around the world. In some of the repressed and/or poor countries, users may not have access to systems that support ECC. But, they still use FreeNAS.

I'm not privy to the number of active FreeNAS servers (I recall seeing a stacked bar chart, showing usage by the top 20? countries), but my wild guess, is that there are a minimum of 250,000 active users/servers. I'm sure many of them are using it successfully on non-ECC systems. Of those 250,000 users, we have a core group of say, 25 users actively answering questions in the English section of the forums. This tiny subset of users will (highly) recommend ECC RAM.

@jkh, can you provide numbers of active FreeNAS installations, based on the telemetry data you collect? Does FreeNAS collect info about ECC use? If so, what percentage of systems are using ECC?

The above is the core marketing text that has led to the majority of my confusion, misunderstanding, and interaction with this forum.

 

[jkh]

PLEASE understand that I am not bitter to this forum, or any of its very nice members, in the post that follows. Just flat out confused.

Hmmm. OK, first off, I sort of got dragged into the discussion by someone asking for statistics on "number of active FreeNAS machines" world-wide, so let me first just answer that question by noting that the only real metric we have is "how many machines check in with the FreeNAS update server" since that is, by default, a daily check (which can of course be disabled or turned off, so it's just a rough guess). Those stats are available to everyone at http://update-stats.freenas.org and the executive summary is "somewhere between 50,000 and 75,000 machines".

Now, on to the real topic of this discussion, namely "what hardware should I choose oh god oh god!" :D

This is, in a nutshell, why iXsystems is able to stay in business selling both FreeNAS and TrueNAS hardware. Some folks just don't want to have to deal with the consequences of a Wrong Choice™ or even if they're fairly sure they're making the Right Choice, based on their research and personal knowledge, maybe they just want a single throat to choke and one vendor to go to for support, RMA service, and what have you. There's absolutely nothing wrong with choosing to DIY just as there's nothing wrong with deciding you want to spend more money and go with the Factory built option.

Any time you choose the "kit" approach, however, you're also signing up to take on the majority of the risk yourself, and that's just the way it is. Why agonize over it so much? I'm sure the brave souls who choose to join the Experimental Aircraft Association, build their own aircraft from kits, and then risk their lives by flying what they built rather than shelling out over $250,000 for a reasonably new Cessna 172SP (and yeah, that's what they cost) that was built by factory professionals don't also spend every flight death-gripping the controls of their VANS RV-7s, screaming silently "I'm gonna die I'm gonna die oh sweet lord Jesus why did I do this?!" into their aviation headsets. They're proud of their work and the fact that they saved almost $200K on a new airplane. Booya. Good on you, guys, I just hope you remembered all of the rivets and don't try any acrobatics until you're really sure that baby's airworthy! Either way, if something falls off in flight and they survive the experience, they get to fix it.

If you'd like a more computer-related analogy for your FreeNAS build, think about building a high-end Gaming machine. You can go to some vendor like Alienware and buy a high-spec Area 51 box, or you can go to Best Buy (or Newegg) and try to assemble a gaming PC from various parts after reading reviews on them. Maybe the latter will work and you'll be able to play all of the games you ever want to play on it, happily satisfied that you also built it yourself and know every part in it. Or maybe 4 out of 5 games will work and you'll discover that your choice of graphics card wasn't quite as hot as you thought and the 5th one will stutter and fail to deliver the kinds of frame rates you need to really play it. Or maybe the entire PC will occasionally lock up, just as you're about to win against the end-level boss in your favorite game. You will scream, you will curse, and eventually you'll probably fix it if your goal of playing high-end games remains undiminished. You may even upgrade your box over time, keeping pace with the latest trends in VR gaming or whatever, and eventually you'll choose a cool-sounding nickname for yourself and create an account on the nearest gaming board to offer advice to newbies trying to do the same thing.

Building hardware for FreeNAS is really no different, maybe the stakes are a little higher than the gaming PC and lower than the kit-built aircraft (you may lose data but at least you're never going to crash into a pre-school), but either way the decision you have to make is the same - you're going to take your chances and just dive in without remorse, or you're going to buy a pre-built solution and leave the risk-taking to someone else.

This may also sound like an over-simplification that fails to take into account key details like "what about that ECC RAM, huh? Huh?! Safe or unsafe?!?" but actually, yes, it does take that into account. There are plenty of FreeNAS boxes out there that do not have ECC RAM, for example, and so far many of their owners have survived and think the whole "you must have ECC RAM" argument is bogus. Does this mean you should also take that risk? I dunno because, again, that's entirely up to you. All of iXsystems' FreeNAS/TrueNAS boxes have ECC RAM, so you can take that little factoid for what it's worth, but iXsystems boxes also tend to be "built to commercial spec", just like those factory Cessna 172s are, and that's one reason why they cost more. You can't just point to one spot in a multi-cell matrix of trade-offs and cost decisions and say "There! That's the one-size-fits-all spot! Everybody just do that!" Life would sure be a lot simpler if there was. ;)

P.S. All that said, there are certainly minimums in terms of recommendations and what you should do to be at least notionally safe, which is why the hardware requirements list exists (as others have pointed out).

 

[Mark Holtz]

I have thoroughly read posts #25 - #28. I guess I do seem to imply a contradiction of sorts. Here is why I chose FreeNAS. A few weeks ago upon initially going to www.freenas.org here is what greeted me on the home page (as well as everyone else that visits) - What is FreeNAS? FreeNAS is an operating system that can be installed on virtually any hardware platform to share data over a network. FreeNAS is the simplest way to create a centralized and easily accessible place for your data. Use FreeNAS with ZFS to protect, store, backup, all of your data. FreeNAS is used everywhere, for the home, small business, and the enterprise.

Well, if you check the hardware requirements page, it will say the minimum specifications as follows:

These specifications will suffice to get a small FreeNAS install running reliably with moderate performance for a few users.

• Multicore 64-bit* processor (Intel strongly recommended)
• 8GB* Boot Drive (USB Flash Drive suffices)
• 8GB* RAM
• At least 1 direct attached disk (Hardware RAID strongly discouraged)
• One physical network port

I interpret minimum specifications as "it will work, it will run, but nobody is promising that it will work well". Or, to put it in Windows terms, that's like saying Windows (64-bit) will work with 2 GB of RAM. Yes, it will boot up.... eventually.... but it will feel like you are working in molasses. Or, for fun, watch the LowSpecGamer YouTube Channel. It's about a one gamer's quest to achieve the lowest graphics settings.

 

[gpsguy]

Thanks Jordan!

That's the graph I remembered, but couldn't locate.

... I sort of got dragged into the discussion by someone asking for statistics on "number of active FreeNAS machines" world-wide, so let me first just answer that question by noting that the only real metric we have is "how many machines check in with the FreeNAS update server" since that is, by default, a daily check (which can of course be disabled or turned off, so it's just a rough guess). Those stats are available to everyone at http://update-stats.freenas.org and the executive summary is "somewhere between 50,000 and 75,000 machines".

 

[maglin]

In my signature is the ode to Dell. I have one and for about $1,000 you can get 144GB of ECC RAM. And stuff 6x 2GB HDDs in it. You get IPMI as well but it will use about 180 watts of power. The FreeNAS mini is a nearly turn key solution with iX support.

Go ahead and use what you have. No one will say it's safe because you may never upgrade and in 6 years might be pointing fingers back at this post. Everyone wants you be to successful in your hardware. I plan to run the box in my signature for at least 8 years. Well all but the enclosure because it only hold 15 drives and I already need more and don't want to JBOD a box. Well not At The Moment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mirfster]

That settles it for me.... I'm off to build me a Cessna 172!!!! :D:p