New to FreeNAS - I might be in way over my head

[Dekade]

I have a few questions that I need answered. I want to start by saying this - I am so new to FreeNAS that I'm not even born yet. I thought I was pretty good on computers - but FreeNAS has humbled me greatly.

Please have patience with me through this thread and then I'll either vanish or struggle through the learning curve.

For years I have done basic peer-to-peer networking from WinXP through Win10. I then decided that I was tired of making sure that files on three computers were always syncd or that a computer, that housed a particular file, was turned on and that the file was shared. I thought a server would be a great idea especially since my wife and I are designing a very small home based company. I never liked the concept of Windows Homegroups; I always use the Windows Explorer Networks for peer-to-peer accessing.

My initial server objectives - have a central location to access personal and soho files; no home theater or songs interests (strictly file sharing); store and share customer relationship management CRM files; host an on premise CRM so that two users can be using it at the same time; network share Quickbooks acccounting; etc., etc.

I have built a server from an old computer - quad 4, Q9550CPU, 8GB Ram, One (and one only) WDRed 2TB NAS drive, FreeNAS on a SanDisk Cruiser 8GB USB stick, and a CyberPower 750 UPS. My house is totally hard wired - no wireless - and incorporates a 16 port TP-Link switch, a Linksys 2.4 Ghz G router, and a Zoom modem. This is the seventh computer I have built but my first server (which really doesn't mean much by me mentioning that tidbit).

Then I researched NAS software and learned that FreeNAS is supposedly the most stable. That was important to me so I proceeded with FreeNAS 9.10.1.

I had no problem installing FreeNAS. I can see the WDRed NAS drive from other computers so I must have done it correctly. I am not really 100% confident about how I see the NAS info within the FreeNAS GUI. Guess I'm just not used to what it all means. I guess I can now map to the drive from other computers and place files on that NAS drive.

Once I went through the setup wizard I started seeing stuff that was definitely foreign to me. Then I started studying FreeNAS, jails, email hosting (which appears to be a 'no go' for just about anyone), plugins, security, etc., etc. - AND - this forum. No doubt everyone on the forum (even Noobs) appears to be way past my phase of being a "newbie".

I hate to make myself a problem on the forum and therefore I need help discerning (from my list of NAS objectives) if FreeNAS is overkill for me. If I stay with FreeNAS I think I will be posting about something at least every other day. I may spend more time posting than designing a soho business to make money. I just can't seem to find any material on the internet that just gives a stripped down tutorial of how to use FreeNAS for my needs without getting involved in major technical situations. My head is having a hard time wrapping around it all - the whole FreeNAS package and the multiple ways to use it. Then - how to set up those multiple ways.

Loaded question: should I stay with FreeNAS or go to something like Amahi? I stayed away from Free4NAS because it actually appeared more involved than FreeNAS.

I will greatly appreciate your input.

Thanks

 

[adrianwi]

I don't think you're going to get a definitive answer on here, as everyone's situation is slightly different.

If all you want is a central repository for some files, and to be able to share those across your network, FreeNAS shouldn't be that difficult to set-up. You just need to set-up a pool, create some datasets, and then share them using the appropriate permissions. If it's within your network you shouldn't need to worry about security, and jails and plugins are for stuff beyond the basic file sharing.

I would agree that FreeNAS can be a little scary to begin with, especially if your background is Windows based. That said, all the basic NAS functionality can be configured from the Web UI, and you can develop your knowledge and understand of the other stuff once you're comfortable with the basics.

In my experience, moving to FreeNAS from various consumer NAS devices was the best thing I ever did. I use mine for so much more now and have developed some basic knowledge around FreeBSD and Linux along the way.

The forum is a great place for support too, with lots of very clever and helpful people on hand when you ask nicely and follow the advice given.

Ultimately, its your decision though :D

 

[Nick2253]

There are three questions I like to ask whenever contemplating a FreeNAS setup:

• Do you want it to be plug-n-play, or is a little DIY OK?
• Is data security a primary or secondary concern?
• Are you willing to buy purpose-built hardware for the job, or do you want to use leftover hardware?

The first question is more of a mind-set question. Some people do not like DIY. I would argue that, once your hardware is setup and FreeNAS is installed, a FreeNAS setup is easier and better documented than using a Synology, but FreeNAS carries the mental baggage of being a DIY project, and some people are really turned off by that: "oh, this is a DIY project, so it must inherently be harder to use and take longer to master, so I'd rather go with an off the shelf solution because that must be easier."

On the second question, FreeNAS (thanks to ZFS) is second to none in the tech-sumer/soho space when it comes to usable data security. Windows Server Storage Spaces is rapidly making up ground, but it's still not quite there. *nix with BTRFS or ZFS is equal to FreeNAS in terms of data security, but its usability is much worse. If data security is a primary concern, then FreeNAS makes a lot of sense. If it's not, then there are probably better options out there.

On the last issue, I've seen people, even in true-blue enterprise environments, that want to reuse old and inadequate hardware for the NAS role. FreeNAS does not need expensive hardware; it needs appropriate hardware. For example, you can get a foot in the door for under $300 with a TS140. What this means, though, is that old desktops or workstations are out.

Now, lets turn these questions to you:

My initial reaction is that you are hesitant on the DIY front, but not completely against it. To be honest, I think this is more of a mind-set issue in your case than a real hold back, but it's ultimately up to you. You also made no mention of data security or data reliability in your question. I'm assuming that data security is important because you're talking about business files, but you never came out and said it directly. And, lastly, you are trying to do this with an old desktop computer.

Based on those three facts, I would probably say that FreeNAS is not for you. On the other hand, it sounds like you got FreeNAS up and running without much of a problem, so if you want to continue down the FreeNAS road, I would recommend looking at more appropriate hardware.

Anecdotally, if you are concerned about on-going maintenance or configuration, don't be. I probably spend less than an hour a year on my personal FreeNAS server, and most of that hour is usually spend fixing things I broke in the first part of that hour :D. Once you get FreeNAS set up, which it sounds like you already have, you're pretty much done.

 

[Mirfster]

Loaded question: should I stay with FreeNAS or go to something like Amahi? I stayed away from Free4NAS because it actually appeared more involved than FreeNAS.

All depends on your desire and willingness to learn. For some the learning curve may be daunting and just not worth. For others, it will all fall into place easily.

To be honest a lot of people end up here eventually, however that is usually after they saw some janky YouTube video posted by some goofball that told then all kinds of wrong ways to do things... In your case, at least you have arrived here before you got too deep into FreeNAS and that is a good thing.

Take some time to read up on FreeNAS to see if it does suit you; just keep in mind that what is mentioned in these forums are guidelines for everyone... There are no "special" cases where your questionable equipment is the exception.

For starters, I have a bunch of links in my sig under "Recommended Reading" that will help you. As well, the FreeNAS Wiki is a great resource (Docs, Videos, etc...). If you want to simply watch an "Intro to FreeNAS" video (used to be a free training course), have a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcrxG6aDAa8&feature=youtu.be

Feel free to ask any questions, just understand that the answers you get may not be "sugar coated" at times. This is not meant to be harsh, just that honesty sometimes is not so sweet to hear. Search the forums first because more than likely what you are asking has been asked hundreds of times before. ;)

 

[wblock]

It sounds like you've already accomplished the hard part, setting up the hardware and configuring the software. Everything else is refinement.

 

[maglin]

The one thing you mentioned is being able to have the same file in use by multiple users. I'm not versed on how to share files simultaneously but I do know there are issues with it no matter the platform the file resides on. I would image it's mostly based on the software that is accessing that file and or database.

I think what you are looking for FreeNAS will fill, but you will need to learn how to create shares. You will also want to purchase some hardware ie. TS120 and have at least 2x HDDs so you can have some form of redundancy. Make sure you have at least the minimum hardware. As Mirfster mentioned above a lot of people for whatever reason think "I'm only using 1-2 drives, so I don't need the minimum 8GB of ram. My 4GB will be fine because it seems to work now." This ends in frustration, time wasted troubleshooting issues, and sometimes data loss. So ensure you have at least the minimum in the hardware category.

Lastly read the manual. It's big and can be daunting if you don't understand the terms used, but you can Google most of the terms and protocols. You also need to find out if your software (ie. quickbooks) requires NFS for it's shared database or if CIFS will work fine. I'm not versed enough to answer that question, but a lot of people just use CIFS including myself for file sharing.

Good luck. It looks like your current system will at least work as a test platform. I'm not to sure if it supports ECC memory, but you can try out FreeNAS and see if it will work for you. If it does then get the required hardware if you decide to continue the use of FreeNAS.

 

[wblock]

Lastly read the manual. It's big and can be daunting if you don't understand the terms used, but you can Google most of the terms and protocols.

And if there is something not clearly explained in the manual, please enter a bug report, being as specific as possible.

 

[Dekade]

...In my experience, moving to FreeNAS from various consumer NAS devices was the best thing I ever did. I use mine for so much more now and have developed some basic knowledge around FreeBSD and Linux along the way. ...The forum is a great place for support too, with lots of very clever and helpful people on hand when you ask nicely and follow the advice given...

This reply I like because it provides confidence in my choice. I studied FreeNAS enough to know that it offers me positive factors down the road.

...The first question is more of a mind-set question. Some people do not like DIY. ...If data security is a primary concern, then FreeNAS makes a lot of sense. ...FreeNAS does not need expensive hardware; it needs appropriate hardware. For example, you can get a foot in the door for under $300 with a TS140. What this means, though, is that old desktops or workstations are out. ...My initial reaction is that you are hesitant on the DIY front, but not completely against it. To be honest, I think this is more of a mind-set issue in your case than a real hold back ... You also made no mention of data security or data reliability in your question. I'm assuming that data security is important because you're talking about business files, but you never came out and said it directly. And, lastly, you are trying to do this with an old desktop computer.

Based on those three facts, I would probably say that FreeNAS is not for you. On the other hand, it sounds like you got FreeNAS up and running without much of a problem, so if you want to continue down the FreeNAS road, I would recommend looking at more appropriate hardware.

One would have the right to question an individual, that is financially strapped enough to be using old hardware, to then ask - why are they starting a business on such a short shoestring? I fully agree, but, there is something about life that can lead a person into ridiculous circumstances. I have to play the hand I am dealt. Yes upgrading in the future to the appropriate hardware is a MUST DO future scenario. For now, I must utilize my current hardware. Thus, can I be efficient enough with that inappropriate structure? Yes, FreeNAS is up and running; I walked through that fairly easily. DIY does not freak me out. I was just caught off guard by FreeNAS. My anxiety wanted it to be simpler. I just have to drop back and punt. I spent many years messing with the software program Filemaker Pro as well as other software's that required some minimal coding etc. Lots of formulas and scripts were learned. I just need to chill and dig into FreeNAS. Security is very important to me. That issue I also have to tackle.

...For starters, I have a bunch of links in my sig under "Recommended Reading" that will help you. As well, the FreeNAS Wiki is a great resource (Docs, Videos, etc...). If you want to simply watch an "Intro to FreeNAS" video (used to be a free training course), have a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcrxG6aDAa8&feature=youtu.be

Feel free to ask any questions, just understand that the answers you get may not be "sugar coated" at times. This is not meant to be harsh, just that honesty sometimes is not so sweet to hear. Search the forums first because more than likely what you are asking has been asked hundreds of times before. ;)

Thank you very much for the links. They will be put to use. The Bold Black print - understood fully.

It sounds like you've already accomplished the hard part, setting up the hardware and configuring the software. Everything else is refinement.

I'm beginning to relax and think that way also.

...I would image it's mostly based on the software that is accessing that file and or database ... Lastly read the manual. It's big and can be daunting if you don't understand the terms used, but you can Google most of the terms and protocols. You also need to find out if your software (ie. quickbooks) requires NFS for it's shared database or if CIFS will work fine. I'm not versed enough to answer that question, but a lot of people just use CIFS including myself for file sharing. I WILL CHECK THAT OUT WITH QUICKBOOKS.

Good luck. It looks like your current system will at least work as a test platform. I'm not to sure if it supports ECC memory, but you can try out FreeNAS and see if it will work for you. If it does then get the required hardware if you decide to continue the use of FreeNAS.

Is ECC memory an important factor in my inappropriate setup - and for what reason???

I think I'm going to hang in there with FreeNAS because I want to grow with its diversity. I will strive to upgrade to appropriate hardware as soon as I can afford it. I understand the necessity otherwise so many of you would not continue to reiterate the need. I just need to get things rolling with my current 4 year old hardware.

I will start studying and posting questions (as few as possible);).

For now, one question: do the attached images seem to support the fact that I have initially succeeded in setting up a place to store and access files? I don't really understand why the volumes were set up the way they were as shown in the screen shot; but, they were.

 

[Nick2253]

Is ECC memory an important factor in my inappropriate setup - and for what reason???

ECC is not a "requirement" in the strict sense, but it's a sort of virtual requirement, because of what role FreeNAS is designed to play: secure your data at any cost.

This of this analogy: FreeNAS is like a Volvo automobile. Volvo's, in particular, are noted for their focus on safety. ECC is like the seatbelt, or an airbag. There are a lot of things that a Volvo (FreeNAS) can protect you from without a seatbelt (ECC), but when things go really wrong, it's one of the most important features for safety (data security). If you're going to own a Volvo, especially if you purchased it specifically for its safety features, why would you go without the seatbelt?

Buying "adequate" hardware for FreeNAS need not be expensive. A Dell T20 or Lenovo TS140 can be had for under $300. Old servers on eBay can be had for under $100 (though, because of power costs, it might not be cost effective overall).

For now, one question: do the attached images seem to support the fact that I have initially succeeded in setting up a place to store and access files? I don't really understand why the volumes were set up the way they were as shown in the screen shot; but, they were.

According to you screenshots, you have done the following:

• Created a pool called "NewDek_01Red2TB"
• Created two datasets in that pool called "jails" and "newdekadeshare01"
• Create a CIFS share called "newdekadeshare01" that shares the dataset "newdekadeshare01"

In other words, yes.

 

[Dekade]

Nick 2253 - Thanks for your support and answers to my questions. I understand the seat belt analogy.

 

[gpsguy]

If you prefer an offline PDF or ePUB version of the manual, you can download it, using a link in my signature.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dekade]

gpsguy - Great. Thanks. Will download the PDF right now.

 

[Mirfster]

For now, one question: do the attached images seem to support the fact that I have initially succeeded in setting up a place to store and access files?

Technically the answer is "Yes".

One (and one only) WDRed 2TB NAS drive

Since you mentioned earlier that you only have one data drive, I would say there is still more work to be done.

However, this is a good start into getting into FreeNAS. As you proceed, you will learn more about vDevs and how they are used to make Volumes/Pools. In that part you will see that having one drive in a Volume is not normally a *good* thing and can lead to total loss of data for a Volume.

But, don't go running scared since this is just your first take at it and you have not put any vital/irreplaceable data there yet right? ;)

Keep at it and you'll understand.

As far as ECC, IMHO it is a requirement; as well as components to support ECC (MotherBoard and CPU)... After all what good does it do to have ECC RAM if the CPU doesn't support it?

To stick with the Volvo analogy, sure the manufacturer suggests Unleaded Gasoline (K, maybe Diesel on some models); but heck it can run on Nail Polish Remover too.... So if you run it on Nail Polish Remover and it dies is it really the Manufacturer's fault since the Engine was *able* to run on something else?

Bit Rot and Data Loss are the things I (we) are concerned about preventing so anything that would lead to either will be met with opposition. :)

 

[maglin]

There is one main reason that ECC is a REQUIREMENT. And that reason is SCRUBS. In order to correct file degradation/corruption such as bit rot or cosmic rays flipping bits on the HDD platter a scrub is required to check the files against the metadata/parity data that is stored on all the other disks (ie. mirrors, RAIDz1-3). If data doesn't match it is restored from the parity data and all is well. These checking and restoring actions go through RAM, and if a stick of regular RAM has a fault and is pumping out bad data then everything that goes through that part of RAM will not verify and thus be fixed as it is flagged as not correct or bad. Then as the data is restored that same piece of bad RAM can corrupt the data being written back to disk. This is a very basic explanation, but you can see the possibility of a single sick of RAM to corrupt an entire pool via a scrub. This has happened in the past and I guarantee you is going to start happening more frequently in the future as FreeNAS becomes more popular and people continue to not use ECC RAM.

If you don't want to run ECC RAM then I highly recommend you not schedule any scrubs. You can't stop the boot drive from being scrubbed but it takes one of the biggest possibilities of entire pool corruption out of the equation. It also removes one of the strongest things keeping your data in tact (SCRUBS). You can find some reading on how scrubs work and what they do for your file system. If you have ECC RAM then the RAM will flag a problem and either correct the problem or tell the system to stop using that RAM. Your data and server chugs on without data corruption and a new entry into the system event log. RAM like everything can just suddenly go bad. That includes ECC RAM but it has safeguards in place to not corrupt anything else. This functionality requires the motherboard chipset as well as the CPU to support ECC RAM.

By default when you create a pool FreeNAS will create a scheduled monthly scrub of that pool. Maybe it does it on the vdev level, but regardless a monthly scrub job is auto created. I wish more people would understand the pit falls of not running the minimum required hardware. By not knowing how things get done such as scrubs it's hard to see the NEED for things such as ECC RAM. There are other things that can be affected but it's the scrubs that can do all the damage when RAM goes bad. Oh and the biggest OMG moment. If you have say a daily backup of your most important data from FreeNAS to any other device. The pool becomes corrupt due to bad RAM and a scrub getting ran. The daily back-up job will backup that corrupt data and overwrite your good data on the backup. So even saying "I'm ok because I backup my data" is not going to work.

Ok I hope I made some sense here. I'm not trying to scare you away just inform on the dangers. Back to the Volvo analogy. ECC isn't the seatbelt. It's the tires. When the RAM goes bad it's the same as a front tire exploding while you are going over 75 mph. The driver (data) is most likely not going to survive.

 

[Mirfster]

Back to the Volvo analogy. ECC isn't the seatbelt. It's the tires. When the RAM goes bad it's the same as a front tire exploding while you are going over 75 mph. The driver (data) is most likely not going to survive.

I dunno, ever seen those old Volvo commercials... Those things are pretty darn resilient... ;) Just kidding; good write up.

On a lighter note @Dekade ... Welcome to the FreeNAS Forums BTW. :)

 

[Nick2253]

There is one main reason that ECC is a REQUIREMENT. And that reason is SCRUBS...

This is not entirely true.

In ZFS, when data is read (or checked via a scrub) then what happens is that data is checked against the checksum data on the same disk. If the data does not match the stored checksum, then ZFS knows that piece of data is bad. It then goes to the corresponding data on the redundant drive(s), and checks that data against the checksum data on the corresponding drive. In the case of a mirrored drive, if the data matches the checksum, then it is copied over to the original drive. In a parity vdev, if all the rest of the data matches the checksum, then it performs the parity calculation and writes that to the original drive. If ZFS cannot match the corresponding data to the checksums on the redundant drive(s), then it does nothing to the original data. Instead, it will flag that data as corrupt and unrecoverable.

Total pool corruption is exceedingly unlikely. It would require a particularly unfortunate set of data or actively malicious memory to make it happen. A simple bad bit or bit-flip would not cause what you describe. In order to have even one block of good data be overwritten with bad data, what would have to happen is checksum(data_drive1 + bit corruption) != (checksum_data_drive1 + bit corruption), but checksum(data_drive2 + bit corruption) = (checksum_data_drive2 + bit corruption). If the data on drive1 and drive2 is the same, this would, again, require actively malicious memory. In the case of a parity data (say a 6-drive RAIDZ2 vdev), you'd need to have at least four drives match in order to write bad data to the other two; an exceedingly unlikely proposition.

The reality is that, while it might happen to a few blocks if you're extremely unlucky, corrupt memory is a true danger to new data. When it comes to new data, ZFS does not yet have a checksum built to verify that data. Which means that the data that gets written to the disk is bad. And that's where ECC comes in: ECC provides a checksum on the memory operations itself, to prevent memory corruption from impacting the rest of your system. If you have bad memory without ECC, new data is corrupted, ZFS writes that corrupted data to the disk, it updates the checksums, and goes about its merry way. Whether that corruption is permanent or temporary, ZFS has no way of knowing about it, and does what it does with what it's given. And now your important data, which you thought was so securely stored in your file server, is corrupt.

So, to be more specific in why you want ECC memory:

• Prevent phantom checksum errors.
• Prevent false-positive corruption on existing data.
• Protect new, inbound data from corruption.
• Prevent corruption in system-level functions.
• etc.

When you're talking about your desktop computer, the unlikelihood of many of these things means that you might be fine going without. But when it comes to a file server, especially a file server designed with a mentality towards ultimate data security, ECC is just a no brainer.

 

[maglin]

The second checksuming of the parity data is something I don't recall reading. I'm going to have to dig into it further. But I do believe the end result of flagging the data as corrupt and unrecoverable would result in close to the same outcome. Just the data is not touched but also not accessible through normal means. But it makes sense.

I'm going to reread on how ZFS scrubs are handled along with resilvering. I don't want to spread bad information. Or even worse omitting information.

 

[Dekade]

... Since you mentioned earlier that you only have one data drive, I would say there is still more work to be done ...

But, don't go running scared since this is just your first take at it and you have not put any vital/irreplaceable data there yet right? ;)

No, there actually is not any data present, period - yet. Which brings me to a maneuver that I have decided upon and need a little input regarding. I have downloaded the 9.10.1 manual and started reading it. I am going to start all over (except for the creating of the OS stick). I am going to buy one more WDRed2TB right away. In the manual it talks about Detach Volume. Does that mean that when I do the Detach Volume that the WDRed2TB will be taken back to factory new? That is what I want to do. Why? Because that's just the way I want to start over. I want to understand why each result took place rather than just seeing the result(s) of where I am currently at. So, my plan is to get the NAS drive back to factory then read the manual step by step and learn rather than just jumping in. So, if nothing is on the drive at this time - what has FreeNAS done to the drive that I want to undo to get it back to factory new for purposes of starting over? Some of you will probably argue my madness, but, it is the way that makes me feel that I will truly learn from the ground floor up.

 

[Mirfster]

In the manual it talks about Detach Volume. Does that mean that when I do the Detach Volume that the WDRed2TB will be taken back to factory new?

When you do chose to do this, FreeNAS will have a checkbox for if you want to "Mark the disk as new (destroy data)". Checking/Selecting that will wipe the drives entirely otherwise they will still contain FreeNAS Data.

So, my plan is to get the NAS drive back to factory then read the manual step by step and learn rather than just jumping in. So, if nothing is on the drive at this time - what has FreeNAS done to the drive that I want to undo to get it back to factory new for purposes of starting over? Some of you will probably argue my madness, but, it is the way that makes me feel that I will truly learn from the ground floor up.

Nothing wrong with doing this at all.

 

[Nick2253]

The second checksuming of the parity data is something I don't recall reading. I'm going to have to dig into it further. But I do believe the end result of flagging the data as corrupt and unrecoverable would result in close to the same outcome. Just the data is not touched but also not accessible through normal means. But it makes sense.

I'm not sure what you mean by "second" checksumming. Every piece of data written to a ZFS drive is checksummed. It doesn't matter if it's part of a mirror vdev or a parity vdev (or even a single-disk vdev). That actually includes the checksum itself, so ZFS can actually tell if the data's checksum is valid or not, because it has a checksum of the checksum.

If I'm remembering correctly re the false flagging, if you could fix your memory problem and run a new scrub, the new scrub would un-flag the data.