FreeNAS isn't what I expected?

[SirMaster]

BTRFS does have a lot of development happening. Every new kernel (every 2-3 months) they get a lot of work done on it.

We are also starting to see some companies including Facebook and Google using it on their production servers now. Heck even NETGEAR ReadyNAS systems can use BTRFS now instead of LVM+MDADM and they have a nice WebGUI to manage it.

Also BTRFS is being set as the default filesystem for openSUSE 12.3 and they are talking about the same for Fedora 21.

I've been using BTRFS as well as ZFS both for 2 years now and I really like them, but I just have a feeling BTRFS will take over my main storage array in about another year. It's been looking really good in the last 2 kernels and I love the features it has that ZFS does not have for my uses.

Sure ZFS has some features that BTRFS doesn't have right now, but those features are not as important to me personally. The functioning block pointer rewrite that BTRFS already has is a pretty compelling feature for home users I would say. It allows converting between RAID types (single -> mirror -> RAID5 -> RAID6 -> (BTRFS supports up to 6 parity disks)), adding single disks to a RAID(n) set, disk balancing, defragmentation, and even offline deduplication.

I think OpenMediaVault as well as the Consumer NAS market (Synology, QNAP, Thecus) will see a lot of attention in a little over a year when they all start adding BTRFS.

It's a great time to be a data hoarder heh. I love ZFS, but I am looking toward the future and keeping my eyes open toward BTRFS for sure.

 

[jgreco]

Well, data storage is definitely a significant challenge moving forward and it is good to have multiple options. I expect btrfs will get there sooner or later, but that its licensing under the GPL will cripple it as a cross-platform filesystem.

 

[SirMaster]

Heh well everyone complains about the CDDL license of ZFS for the same reason which is why it can't be included in the Linux kernel. Guess it will never be perfect.

 

[Trif55]

On a slightly off track note regarding the last two posts, how the hell can two FREE "software licences" conflict?!?

 

[SirMaster]

The GPL requires that any derivative works you distribute are
available under the GPL terms. If any components are under a
different license, the terms of that license must be at most
a subset of the terms of the GPL. That's called "compatible".

For example the MIT license is compatible, as its terms are
basically "do not remove notice and do not sue if it breaks".
That is also in the GPL.

The CDDL (what ZFS uses) however is not GPL compatible:
"It requires that all attribution notices be maintained, while the GPL only
requires certain types of notices. Also, it terminates in retaliation for
certain aggressive uses of patents. So, a module covered by the GPL and a
module covered by the CDDL cannot legally be linked together."

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html#CDDL

 

[Trif55]

I guess I'd just always assumed free stuff was free stuff, surely it'd benefit everyone (the goal of all free licences?) more if there weren't restrictions, anyway, I digress.

SnapRAID does look very interesting, I just wish it was more mature - only "with reproducible data." - scares me. How/When can you tell a product like that is "ready" ? just a feeling you get reading about where its been used etc? Or just use it and ensure anything which isn't "reproducible" is backed up elsewhere one extra time?

I really like the safe feeling I get thinking about ZFS's :) but the only way I can imagine using that is getting involved with making vdevs from partitions of drives, or is that the freight train heading down a dirt track? Is that why although its entirely possible through the CLI already, its not supported in FreeNAS's interface?

I've got a lot more reading into BtrFS to do (As it sounds like it may well be what I need) but the same question applies how do I know when its "Ready"?

P.S. really enjoying the freight train + different tracks metaphor! :)

As an aside, what do you guys use to back up your primary storage? (local options only - I'm only on 512k upload, go England!)

 

[SirMaster]

To be fair you should have a backup of any non-reproducible data regardless of the filesystem you choose, including ZFS.

I backup my ZFS array with a second ZFS array in another machine, and then I have a third backup on Crashplan.

 

[mjws00]

SnapRAID is pretty much just a parity system that lives on top of the filesystem. So it can't really hurt anything. It simply computes checksums and writes parity data to as many drives as you wish. So you can always access all drive data directly. It only comes into play if you accidentally delete something or have a hardware failure. It doesn't add risk to the system because if it fails your original files are there. However, if you have a drive fail. You can literally plug a fresh one in... tell it to fix... all your data reappears. Works perfectly in my testing. But it functions like a snapshot, in that it isn't live like raid or zfs. Which for reasonably static data is fine.

For me the concern is simply a small userbase, and a single developer. Not risk due to the product itself. Plus I'd like a nice gui.

I simply found its flexibility compelling for something like a large movie or tv collection. For me that stuff never changes, and isn't worth spending $$$ on many TB of backup storage. Hardware redundancy is nice, as drives fail. I really don't mind throwing an extra drive or two at it. But not two HUGE ZFS servers.

My important data is mirrored many times and stored in an offline array. Critical data also gets sent to the cloud, and archived to BD. I typically have a recent offsite copy as well. But most personal data outside of pictures is reasonably sized. I've been paranoid about data loss for decades. I also threw the money at a server for FreeNAS, but haven't implemented full migration. I'm more interested in what it can do for clients.

Massive data is hard for end users. For me HDDs stored offsite are about the only thing practical. But a pain to keep current etc. Cloud solutions simply don't have capacity for more than critical files in my case.

 

[Trif55]

What exactly do you mean?

My important data is mirrored many times and stored in an offline array

But yea, I was thinking large primary storage (say btrfs) for all data including backup disk images of desktop PC HDDs/SSDs (small ~ 2tb overall)
Smaller secondary storage (snapraid could be nice for this) - roughly 1 week old copy of all data, less disk images (stuff under 1 week old is likely to be on a desktop PC somewhere still anyway)
Apocalypse storage - 1 or 2 external hard drives, or even USB drives? in a safe or sealed container offsite, as like you say "important" pictures are honestly few and far between and everything else is really small!

 

[cyberjock]

If you want to go with FreeNAS, give up the pipedream of doing multiple partitions and stuff right now. Use the product as intended or expect "unintended consequences" that may be up to and including a loss of your data.

 

[mjws00]

My workstation has a few ssd's and sometimes up to 10 hdds. The offline array is a 4 disk USB cage that stays powered off unless in use. Guards against encryption bugs or catastrophic power spike. But still instant access if I want it.

The important data is copied to many physical drives. As well as to my media server and laptop. There is also a FreeNas/Esxi server with my data on it but it may get reconfigured at any time. I am mainly guarding against failure... or physical loss.

 

[mjws00]

I agree with cyber on the FreeNAS. Don't go nuts with strange configs. jrgreco's suggestion of mirrored vdevs will put your old drives to work safely.

Nothing to stop you from testing all that weirded out junk on BSD, or OpenSolaris, even the CLI in FreeNAS. But even if it works... for a month or a year and in your testing. It may come back and get you. So you'll either learn it doesn't work and fails catastrophically. Or it bites you later with some weird error that no one has ever seen, or has an interest in troubleshooting because you are so far out of intended use on your pool design.

I'm all about innovative and creative solutions, but a single device that fails and takes out multiple vdevs and pools seems like a lot to expect zfs to recover nicely from. Building that in "on purpose" seems out there. Even as a compromise.

 

[Trif55]

If you want to go with FreeNAS, give up the pipedream of doing multiple partitions and stuff right now. Use the product as intended or expect "unintended consequences" that may be up to and including a loss of your data.

I have given up, I don't think I have the right tracks for this freight train, I have learnt a lot though, whatever storage systems I do build will definitely include ECC RAM, as I see it, its a relatively one off (and not very expensive) investment compared to the ongoing cost of drives to expand the actual storage space anyway! Do you have any recommendations for a good motherboard at roughly half the cost of the one in your guide or any brands other than supermicro?

edit: Also any recommendations for add in cards to give additional SATA ports?

I agree with cyber on the FreeNAS. Don't go nuts with strange configs. jrgreco's suggestion of mirrored vdevs will put your old drives to work safely.

Nothing to stop you from testing all that weirded out junk on BSD, or OpenSolaris, even the CLI in FreeNAS. But even if it works... for a month or a year and in your testing. It may come back and get you. So you'll either learn it doesn't work and fails catastrophically. Or it bites you later with some weird error that no one has ever seen, or has an interest in troubleshooting because you are so far out of intended use on your pool design.

I'm all about innovative and creative solutions, but a single device that fails and takes out multiple vdevs and pools seems like a lot to expect zfs to recover nicely from. Building that in "on purpose" seems out there. Even as a compromise.

Not to get too far into it as its just a random idea but if a drive failed it'd maybe take 4 partitions, each of which would have been part of a different RaidZ2 vdev, that wouldn't cause any of the vdevs to go down, just require a replacement component. But like you say, its off track :)

 

[mjws00]

Not to get too far into it as its just a random idea but if a drive failed it'd maybe take 4 partitions, each of which would have been part of a different RaidZ2 vdev, that wouldn't cause any of the vdevs to go down, just require a replacement component. But like you say, its off track :)

I get the theory. I meant degraded when I said "take out" not pool loss. Just seems like instead of giving your pool a small poke with a failure... you are taking a sawed off shotgun to everything on your server in one shot. Blech.

Only cheap config I would trust would be joeschmuck's AMD rig. And I couldn't ever bring myself to do it. Or a server board with a g2020 to save a little. If there was a cheap GOOD option it would be all the rage, and definitely in the sticky. Sorry man, wish there was a better answer. Unfortunately I'm not a believer in cheap mobo's, so have no good experience... usually I am swapping them out. ;)

 

[New2NAS]

First Trif55, I appreciate you starting this discussion. I share the sentiments that you described in your original post. What attracted me to FreeNAS in the first place was the idea of recycling computer components make a server.

To be quite honest, I'd like to follow all the hardware recommendations but I cannot afford it. I assembled my first FreeNas 7 server four years ago for $70. It was an old Pentium tower with 2GB of ram. The drives were formatted with UFS. The machine was solid. The only reason I had to upgrade to FreeNAS 8 is because my machine was literally struck by lightning and the on board ethernet card got fried.

Would I like a FreeNAS Mini? Sure I would, the hardware looks boss. Spending $1000 just isn't in my budget. I hesitated to spend $70 originally. All I want to do is stream movies to a pair of TVs, back up some of my computers and have a little auxiliary storage.

Don't get me wrong, I support FreeNAS. All of my colleagues and friends know about this open source project. FreeNAS is something that everyone should be aware of in my opinion.

 

[panz]

First Trif55, I appreciate you starting this discussion. I share the sentiments that you described in your original post. What attracted me to FreeNAS in the first place was the idea of recycling computer components make a server.

To be quite honest, I'd like to follow all the hardware recommendations but I cannot afford it. I assembled my first FreeNas 7 server four years ago for $70. It was an old Pentium tower with 2GB of ram. The drives were formatted with UFS. The machine was solid. The only reason I had to upgrade to FreeNAS 8 is because my machine was literally struck by lightning and the on board ethernet card got fried.

Would I like a FreeNAS Mini? Sure I would, the hardware looks boss. Spending $1000 just isn't in my budget. I hesitated to spend $70 originally. All I want to do is stream movies to a pair of TVs, back up some of my computers and have a little auxiliary storage.

Don't get me wrong, I support FreeNAS. All of my colleagues and friends know about this open source project. FreeNAS is something that everyone should be aware of in my opinion.

I think that there is no "NAS intention" in the phrase «I hesitated to spend $70 originally». You can achieve the "stream movies to a pair of TVs, back up some of my computers and have a little auxiliary storage" with a cheap external HD connected to your PC.
If a lightning destroyed your computer (so, you hadn't any protection at all --> you have no important data) a NAS isn't what you need.

 

[jgreco]

You can always go check to see if NAS4Free supports your stuff. FreeNAS 8 and 9 are specifically aimed towards the higher end, we're the guinea pigs who are shaking the bugs out of TrueNAS, hahahah.

 

[Trif55]

I think that there is no "NAS intention" in the phrase «I hesitated to spend $70 originally». You can achieve the "stream movies to a pair of TVs, back up some of my computers and have a little auxiliary storage" with a cheap external HD connected to your PC.
If a lightning destroyed your computer (so, you hadn't any protection at all --> you have no important data) a NAS isn't what you need.

There is something very dismissive in your tone here, I'm not sure if you meant it that way but it certainly comes across as that,

I believe anyone here asking questions/stating opinions like New2NAS does value their data, that's why they're trying to put together a NAS to back their PCs up to, (and maybe a second offline NAS to back that up to ;)) there are many reasons for not using cheap external HDDs:

Too much data to back up from multiple PCs,
Want the convenience of shared storage across all devices,
No easy option to expand incrementally,
Cost of multiple large external HDDs,
Easy availability of old hardware and disks,
Easy expansion through whatever is the best $ per GB at the time, not the largest.

Also proper protection from lightning is expensive, that's the reason he doesn't have it, not because he has no important data,

Only cheap config I would trust would be joeschmuck's AMD rig. And I couldn't ever bring myself to do it. Or a server board with a g2020 to save a little. If there was a cheap GOOD option it would be all the rage, and definitely in the sticky. Sorry man, wish there was a better answer. Unfortunately I'm not a believer in cheap mobo's, so have no good experience... usually I am swapping them out. ;)

When you say a server board, what would be the cheapest server board you'd dare use? :)

You can always go check to see if NAS4Free supports your stuff. FreeNAS 8 and 9 are specifically aimed towards the higher end, we're the guinea pigs who are shaking the bugs out of TrueNAS, hahahah.

Do you mean my dreams of flexible storage? Or old hardware?

 

[Ericloewe]

There is something very dismissive in your tone here, I'm not sure if you meant it that way but it certainly comes across as that,

I believe anyone here asking questions/stating opinions like New2NAS does value their data, that's why they're trying to put together a NAS to back their PCs up to, (and maybe a second offline NAS to back that up to ;)) there are many reasons for not using cheap external HDDs:

Too much data to back up from multiple PCs,
Want the convenience of shared storage across all devices,
No easy option to expand incrementally,
Cost of multiple large external HDDs,
Easy availability of old hardware and disks,
Easy expansion through whatever is the best $ per GB at the time, not the largest.

Also proper protection from lightning is expensive, that's the reason he doesn't have it, not because he has no important data,


When you say a server board, what would be the cheapest server board you'd dare use? :)


Do you mean my dreams of flexible storage? Or old hardware?

NAS4Free is said to have more relaxed requirements than FreeNAS. Dunno if it's true, though.

 

[mjws00]

When you say a server board, what would be the cheapest server board you'd dare use? :)

LOL. I'd literally hit newegg.com and server boards. Sort by price. Grab first supermicro socket 1150 that supports 32GB. Use the numbers to find a "deal". ;)

My vendor here has a clearance rack, with rma's and returns... my brand new intel board was under $120. No accessories... but who cares. They have another one for $109. I don't love Intel boards, they have their quirks (though I've seen none on this one.). But they are rock solid and very good at supporting the specs they say they do 'like vt-d'. For quick cheap and dirty it's a score.

My proc was open box. Saved there too. But I am impatient, like to shop local, and this was instant gratification. The Supermicro board everyone loves with the additional controller is really a good Haswell deal. The 4 core Avoton is a pretty good score if it meets your needs.

I'm pretty jaded and fussy, and would rather hunt for a deal on good gear than buy something on the low end. Better to get the Intel cards and HBA built in at a large discount if you can, imho. Odd chipsets can bite you as well. So that will rule out some boards that might look OK. c2xx for Haswell.

Unfortunately I am a gear junkie... Already wishing I'd gone E5 not E3. My current socket 2011 is prosumer. No good for BSD or ECC. This will make a good backup server ;)