BUILD Build Opinion: Supermicro vs. Intel Avoton

[Blkadder]

Hello,

Taking a dive into my first build (well FreeNAS build anyways) and based on the reading I have done over the last day or so was pretty set on going with the Supermicro X10SL7-F as I have 8 5TB array drives + i3 4130 + a Fractal R5 case (have another Fractal for my HTPC which I like) until I ran across the Intel Avoton c2750.

Price-wise it seems pretty much a wash between the two although the case for the Avoton (Silverstone Premium Mini) is about $50 more. Both motherboards take ECC memory so things look good there. I also understand there have been some issues with the Marvell controller on the Avoton which have(?) been addressed with a firmware upgrade but would really appreciate confirmation one way or another if anyone has one of these and has done the upgrade.

Assuming that is sorted and or/not an issue here's what I've come up with as pro's between the two and would appreciate a sanity check:

Avoton + Silverstone Pros:
Significantly lower power draw
Smaller footprint
Hot-swap/Removable drive trays

Supermicro +i3 Pros + Fractal:
A bit more horsepower (at least according to the synthetic benchmarks I have looked at)
Larger community/better-known
Easier to cool (more space)

Anything else I am missing or should consider?

 

[ChriZ]

From what is written here in the forums:
1. The Silverstone case has airflow issues
2. The Marvell ports are not trusted.

IMHO, smaller footprint is the only gain from the Avoton solution. Even power consumption in idle states ( your server will be idle most of the time), is not so different. I do have a build which utilizes the 4130 (a sophos utm) and with a hard disk constantly spinning it idles at 26 watts. Haswell CPUs ( even the faster ones) are extremely energy efficient.

 

[DrKK]

The Marvell ports have been....better. Complaints regarding the Marvell ports are no longer a day-to-day occurrence for us in the Community. So, all the signs point towards the recent changes to the drivers, etc., as generally fixing the problems. However, that's a long way off of us officially signing up for Marvell ports on our own stuff.

I would say we are, uh, "optimistic" about the Marvell ports at this juncture, but I think most of us would stop short of completely signing off on them until we see what we see over the next several months.

The "classic" home FreeNAS build continues to be based around an X10 motherboard, such as the one you propose. However, people have had good success with the Atom thing from both server-grade ASRock and SuperMicro offerings.

 

[Pheran]

If you decide to go the SuperMicro/R5 route, take a look at the build thread in my signature, as your system will be a lot like mine. Personally I think hot swap is not very useful in a home environment. Of course it's invaluable in an enterprise with hundreds (or more) drives, but at home, your drive shouldn't be failing very often - if they are something is wrong! :)

 

[DrKK]

Personally I think hot swap is not very useful in a home environment.

Thank God someone finally said this. I never understand all this hotswap hotswap hotswap hotswap horseshit I always hear from guys with rinky-dink home FreeNAS's. You're going to lose like, what, 1 drive every couple of years? Pretty sure you can power down the box, unscrew the drive, and screw in a new one, without needing hotswap cages.

 

[ChriZ]

Well, I've come to the conclusion that, when people keep telling about hotswap in a home environment, they don't actually mean that they want to be able to change an hdd with the system running. They actually mean the ability to easily remove a harddisk without needing to open the case and mess a lot with cabling and stuff.
So what they actually want/need is easy swap.

But with the Fractal Design chassis, changing a failed hard disk is not that difficult, anyways

 

[Blkadder]

Thank God someone finally said this. I never understand all this hotswap hotswap hotswap hotswap horseshit I always hear from guys with rinky-dink home FreeNAS's. You're going to lose like, what, 1 drive every couple of years? Pretty sure you can power down the box, unscrew the drive, and screw in a new one, without needing hotswap cages.

It's not so much hotswap that I want but rather easily removable drive trays. Call me lazy but when a drive fails I prefer not to have to open a case and dig around.

 

[Blkadder]

If you decide to go the SuperMicro/R5 route, take a look at the build thread in my signature, as your system will be a lot like mine. Personally I think hot swap is not very useful in a home environment. Of course it's invaluable in an enterprise with hundreds (or more) drives, but at home, your drive shouldn't be failing very often - if they are something is wrong! :)

The Marvell ports have been....better. Complaints regarding the Marvell ports are no longer a day-to-day occurrence for us in the Community. So, all the signs point towards the recent changes to the drivers, etc., as generally fixing the problems. However, that's a long way off of us officially signing up for Marvell ports on our own stuff.

I would say we are, uh, "optimistic" about the Marvell ports at this juncture, but I think most of us would stop short of completely signing off on them until we see what we see over the next several months.

Thanks that was sort of the sense I got but wasn't certain if problems were still occurring or not. Will probably just go with the X10-based build as there isn't a lot of reason to risk it and I have the space for a larger box. Appreciate the feedback!

 

[Blkadder]

If you decide to go the SuperMicro/R5 route, take a look at the build thread in my signature, as your system will be a lot like mine.

Thanks! One question: Why did you choose to spend the extra money for the Xeon?

 

[Waco]

It depends on your workload. If using CIFS, I wouldn't even think of running the Avoton. If NFS, you could probably get away with it.

 

[DrKK]

It's not so much hotswap that I want but rather easily removable drive trays. Call me lazy but when a drive fails I prefer not to have to open a case and dig around. :)

I understand that seemingly logical statement, and that's what I hear time and time and time again. But what gets me is I can't understand why Joe Blow, with a home FreeNAS, thinks it's a good idea to invest what, $50, $100, whatever, more in his system just to save somewhere between 0 and 15 minutes of inconvenience per year. Having easy-swap drive cages is a comparatively expensive convenience that literally makes almost no difference, whatsoever, in the cross-section of your life.

It's like buying a motorized necktie rack when you wear a shirt-and-tie either zero, or one, times per year.

 

[Waco]

Not really. If you want to fix your server with a bad drive or drives online, hot swap bays are incredibly convenient.

 

[TheDubiousDubber]

I understand that seemingly logical statement, and that's what I hear time and time and time again. But what gets me is I can't understand why Joe Blow, with a home FreeNAS, thinks it's a good idea to invest what, $50, $100, whatever, more in his system just to save somewhere between 0 and 15 minutes of inconvenience per year. Having easy-swap drive cages is a comparatively expensive convenience that literally makes almost no difference, whatsoever, in the cross-section of your life.

It's like buying a motorized necktie rack when you wear a shirt-and-tie either zero, or one, times per year.

That reminds me. I need to get one of those motorized neck tie racks. I'm up to needing a tie about 3 or 4 days out of the year.

Also, wanted to add that there is a difference in memory. Assuming one picks the Avotondue to the m-ITX size, you have to factor in the need for ECC SO-DIMMs. In my experience, these can be harder to find and more expensive as a result.

 

[DrKK]

hot swap bays are incredibly convenient.

I am pretty sure everyone agrees they are incredibly convenient, sir. My point, to reiterate a third time, is that the amount of convenience provided doesn't even remotely approach the additional expense required. The cost (in either actual dollars, or in the reduction in the product space available to you when choosing a case) is out of proportion to its expected benefit. The odds that you will need to swap anything, in a given year, are probably about 1% if you know what you're doing with your FreeNAS. If you *DO* need to swap, it'll take you 15-30 minutes without a hotswap cage. It'll take about 1 minute with a hotswap cage. So, you have a 1% chance, roughly, of saving 29 minutes, and a 99% chance of saving 0 minutes. Thus, your mathematically expected "convenience" will be, at most, something like 17 seconds, per annum. The average person making their own FreeNAS who I hear constantly haranguing about "hot swap" bays probably makes, in average, somewhere between $0 per year, and $60000 per year. Hell, let's go with $100000 per year. That works out to $50 per hour, at the very very very very very most. That means, the pure monetary value of your time savings is likely to be just about 23 cents. Per year. Plus, sure, let's say you're willing to pay a couple dollars for convenience, just because. So, alright, now we're at $3.23. That's about what you can justify, as Joe Blow the home FreeNAS dude, on spending for hotswap cages for your drives.

You see? You're spending way, way, way more than that, in reduced options, and the price of the cases, and/or price of the add-on cages.

QED.

 

[Bidule0hm]

I agree and I'll add I don't like hotswap either because I've seen more than one time problems due to hotswapping, it's kinda harsh on the hardware and on the software too. Then you can add more difficult cooling because of the trays so more power hungry fans and more noise too.

I really don't see how benefits can overtake the disadvantages for a home server (in a company it's different because you usually can't afford down time on the server).

 

[Pheran]

Thanks! One question: Why did you choose to spend the extra money for the Xeon?

I almost went with an i3, but I decided to spring for the Xeon in case I decide to virtualize down the road, because it supports VT-d and the i3 doesn't. But I definitely would not recommend virtualized FreeNAS for most people, you absolutely have to understand exactly what you are doing or you can trash your system. Also, the extra horsepower of the Xeon won't hurt if I ever get into heavier Plex transcoding scenarios. In short, an i3 will be totally fine unless you have a lot of transcoding demand.

 

[Blkadder]

I am pretty sure everyone agrees they are incredibly convenient, sir. My point, to reiterate a third time, is that the amount of convenience provided doesn't even remotely approach the additional expense required.

That's entirely a value judgement. For me it's worth the extra $50 or whatever under normal circumstances for the convenience and respectfully you don't get to decide what the marginal value of that convenience is for anyone other than yourself.

 

[DrKK]

OK :)

 

[Ericloewe]

From my point of view, hot-swap bays are useful to achieve densities approaching those of rackmount chassis without the inconveniences of said rackmount chassis.
15 3.5" drives are doable in a regular-size ATX chassis, with 13 drives being a very comfortable fit.

Plus, hypnotizing lights.

 

[TheDubiousDubber]

From my point of view, hot-swap bays are useful to achieve densities approaching those of rackmount chassis without the inconveniences of said rackmount chassis.
15 3.5" drives are doable in a regular-size ATX chassis, with 13 drives being a very comfortable fit.

Plus, hypnotizing lights.

Exactly. The lights add a little extra flair to the corner of my living room. My modem, router and switch just aren't quite enough. Add in the lights from my 2U 12 Bay FreeNAS box and you got yourself a show.