I'd say that this thread is for the most part on topic for this perticular problem on all 8 pages. I don't see the value of starting another thread as all the previous troubleshooting here would still need to be read by someone who wants to help, assuming they want to see the whole story. So I think we are going to agree to dis-agree for this perticular thread, but I do understand what you are saying for some threads, they can be too long.